Guns don’t kill people, idiots do
Written by Peter | Filed under Crime, General
There was a shooting outside the (ironically-named) Aristocrats nightclub last night. According to the BBC, three men are being treated. The radio news this morning said that one man is critically ill, and the shooting was provoked by someone letting off fireworks inside the club.
I was going to ask what kind of idiot lets off fireworks inside a club, but I guess that it’s the same kind of idiot who carries a gun.
November 1st, 2006
If it was in Aristocrats, maybe it was Lord Henry.
Was that the reason for the traffic mayhem this morning?
Hmm shootings at this aristocratic venue seem to be all too frequent, is there cause to raise concerns as local residents with the council to have their licence restricted? I’m sure the Police will be doing so. As I understand it they are currently open to 1am Mon-Thu but if they are attracting shooting maybe they should be shutting earlier.
Tricky one though
–was the shooting related to the club or did it just provide the backdrop — was it a did you spill my pint/ are you looking at my bird kind of nightclub situation that got out of hand or is it a deeper problem (I assume as they had guns that it is deeper)
–is it the club’s fault that it attracts people who want to shoot each other
–will these people not just shoot each other elsewhere in Camberwell if Aristocrats is not open
–who goes out clubbing on a Tuesday night
All these questions
Oh dear no easy solutions. Its sad though that our area is reported in the news merely as the scene of shootings/ mentally ill people/ other bad things
Hi
They are covering the story on thelondonpaper.com.
Does anyone know what’s happening the licensing of Cube — the nightclub on camberwell grove?
The council were due to decide on the licensing of it today..and there were protests that peckham gangs had moved up to camberwell and using this as their den.
Baby carrot
The shooting (or at least one of them) took place on my doorstep. I had to be escorted out of the cordon by officers this morning, jumping over the blood and bullets being examined by forensics on my doorstep, and trying not to look at the three deep bullet holes at headheight on the wall next to my door.
aristocrats is a sink for the very worst camberwell and surroundings has to offer — crowds of pumped up, fronting, aggressive (and tooled up) people most nights at 3am. Not surprising someone got shot if they threw fireworks in, and hardly surprising given the venue’s history.
I for one am now questioning my continued residence in camberwell (which i do l have a lot of affection for). this was a wee bit toooo close to home. quite literally.
I had heard the fireworks last night, and got up to close the window to my front room. 10 minutes later three distinct bursts of automatic fire. and then a pool of blood outside my flat. nice start to the day.
ewookie — if these people were customers at Aristcrat this is solid grounds for requesting a review of this places license.
You will probably find that the police will be sympathetic to this. No one should have to put up with people being shot on their doorstep.
And lo, as I predicted, Aristocrats’ Bi-Annual Shooting Event has come to pass! And with eight weeks of the year to spare!
You could track the development of the club if you lived nearby. First the optimistic glass windows. Then the half-glass, half-wood combo. Then all-wood. And finally, full-strength metal. Maybe they’ll have a tank outside there someday.
Aristrocrats will eventually close, then look for the increased gunplay/stabbings taking place at Miuro.
But then again, to paraphrase Bugsy Siegel, They only kill each other.
hannah — i’m taking steps — and i think teh police would welcome official complaints. the police said as much when i gave my statement this morning. perhaps this is something for discussion at se5forum?
proper scarey when it’s outside your door. bloody machine guns!
lord H — the front aspect has indeed been telling. along with the no search/no entry signs, anti drugs messages, and strong smell of skunk that seems omniprescent.
guns don’t kill people, aristocrats do.
Well yes i think that the apparent increase in gun related incidents in bars and clubs in and around Camberwell does need to be addressed urgently and raised with the council.
More here:
http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=DB130628V&news_headline=gunfight_outside_london_nightclub
Ewookie — you could probably hit them with breaking at least one of the four licensing objectives “prevention of crime and disorder” if not all four really.
Remember if you feel at all intimidated you are entitled to ask the council not to reveal your details to the licensee.
I think we definitely need to talk to the council about this as the Red Cube at the bottom of Camberwell Grove has also had shootings. However more need to be done to address the issue of gun crime in the borough. It’s crazy!
Hi everyone.
I live in camberwell do and work at the london paper. Would you guys care to help me out on a story about gun crime in the area.
I am particularly interested in hearing from wookie.
you can get me at lisa.ocarroll@thelondonpaper.com
By the way, the link to the LondonPaper story is here.
http://www.thelondonpaper.com/cs/Satellite/london/news
Man dies in Hallowe’en gun attack
by thelondonpaper.com, Wednesday 1 November 2006 14:40
From the print edition of thelondonpaper
One man has been killed and two others injured in a Hallowe’en machinegun attack at a nightclub.
I used to live in the building that ‘Aristocrats’ occupies the bottom floor of. This was in the late 80s and the ground floor was a shipping abroad service, the owner of which was also our landlord. I lived on the 1st floor. and, yes ben patio, the shooting was the reason for the traffic chaos this morning. I ended up walking to Oval tube cos on BBC TV they said it was Camberwell New Rd that was closed. pah!
Lord Henry, whenever I go past Miuro it looks tranquil and civilized. Am I there at the wrong time of day?
I quite fancy their leather settees.
This is very interesting — dates back to 2003!!
http://www.southwark.gov.uk/uploads/file_3729.pdf
Carole — Yeah Miuro is quiet, if you disregard the double stabbing in the first week of its opening. It also has a curious “membership” policy. The Venue in New Cross used to have a similar “membership” policy, which involved black people being turned away. Miuro is the Yin to that Yang.
Amanda Fuller — Eyo Henshaw is not long for Camberwell, methinks!
Or should that be Eeyore Henshaw? Eeyore, you ignorant donkey, wherever you are, you faciliitate acts of violence on your premises, violence that spills out into the community. You are scum. Bugger off now and leave us all in peace.
There was a recent double shooting in McDonalds in Brixton last month. I will be asking the council/police to review their licence forthwith. McDonalds has a reputation of attracting the worst sort of low life carnivores and this is borne out by the excessive violence taking place in their eateries. SHUT DOWN McDONALDS!
Further to my above post, I am quite certain that the moment the offending ‘restaurants’ are closed down we will see a year on year decrease in the scourge of gun violence.
Interesting point, Rob. I can think of at least two murders that have occurred outside the McDonalds in Camberwell in the last 10 years, murders that have spilled out from the restaurant onto the street.
Surely if Aristocrats can be closed down as a result of this latest incident, then the same law can apply to the McDonalds?
Has anyone noticed that, according to the reports, the police were on the scene at 2.06.
The shooting happened at 2.26.
Wherefore art thou, P C Plod?
It was no surprise to me that there was a shooting outside this venue yet again, we can expect the annual slaying outside McDonalds/Butterfly Walk any day now too, no doubt…Plankton with guns, that’s all they are…
Camberwell magistrates court hearing on Cubed nightclub’s licence is on at 10am today.…Camberwell licensing committee referred it on after suspending the clubs licence in June…
thelondonpaper.com will follow it up…
Let us spare a thought for Jamail the young man who lost his life yesterday. He used to live in the same road as me, yes, he had some troubles which I believe related to his school not getting the best out of him, and then him not being given appropriate direction and support by the Job Centres in the area, he was therefore not given appropriate direction and never had a chance to shine.
Jamil lived with his grandmother, an upright churchgoing lady, who certainly tried her best with him, he was also always nice and polite to me and other locals — we will miss him and I offer my sincere condolences to his family, as I believe should others.
May God bless his soul!
My condolences to his family on their loss. If, however, he was carrying a gun and put other peoples lives at risk, I’m afraid I can’t mourn for what he was, only for what he could have been.
hi there. this is a long shot but just in case.… i work for the bbc world service and in an hour we’re hosting a discussion about young black men prompted in part by the shooting at aristocrats. i thoght some of you might be interested in taking part. you can find out more at http://www.bbcnews.com/worldhaveyoursay or just email me straight at ros.atkins@bbc.co.uk. thanks.
There seem to be so many shootings in the area at the moment, all over Myatts field at the moment. Truly living the dream in the hood me thinks
There are hilarious “Nothing to do with me, mate” notices pasted up on the exterior of Aristocrats by the management. Check them out. Absolutely sidesplitting in their wilful ignorance. There’s even a statement along the lines of “closing down black nightclubs is not the answer”.
Let’s look at the facts concerning local bars with late licenses –
The Castle — no gun crime.
The Funky Munky — no gun crime.
The Dispensary — no gun crime.
The Black Sheep — no gun crime.
Cube — a shootout on the street outside.
Miuro — a double stabbing in its first week of opening.
Aristocrats — at least three shootings within the two years of its opening. One dead.
Work out the common denominator for yourselves.
I am really saddened by some of these posts. A young man has died. He is only 19. He has a loving grandmother, people who care aboout him. I too have a 19 year old son. He has no criminal record, got good GCSE resuults and is in further education. Yet in his teenage years he has been stopped and searched by poolice 30 times or more, only once with any paperwork, put in handcuffs on three occasions, for asking what he was being stopped for, stabbed in the chest and nearly killed for chatting up someone else’s girlfriend.The police’s immediate response to this crime was to search our house for drugs! Old ladies shy away from my son and shopkeepers all think he’s a thief. Imagine how that feels. Can’t we stop and think? My neighbour has a 19 year old son and he has very little hassle. The difference? The only one I can see (and they grew up as friends and went to the same schools is that my son is black and he is white. I think that it’s time we all stopped and looked hard at what is happening under our noses and the causes behind what is going on. It is already too late. Too many young men are dead. Instead of worrying about moving away and the prices of your proerty, perhaps you could do something to help. Try and understand what life is like from a young black person’s perspective. Smile at the group of youths on your street corner instead of being afraid. Believe that the majority of black youngsters are not criminals, but feel criminalised. Ask why the police are troubling little boys on bicycles instead of finding where the guns and drugs are coming from. Sort out your own backyard. Don’t run away-do something, no matter how small.
I chose to bring my children up here in Camberwell, where their father grew up. But my 19 year old son is more frightened than any of you. Ans so are most young black men. Your fear only makes it worse.
Hi Realme,
Thanks for the comment, and believe me, I do understand. I agree with your point, but I think that in the case of the boy who died, if it turns out that was the way of life he chose, then that was the way of death he chose. Imagine how many innocent people could have been killed when a sub-machine gun was fired indiscriminately into a crowd. Ewookie (who commented above) lives right by where it happened; a stray bullet could easily have gone in his direction.
I completely agree that the answer is not to give in to fear and move somewhere else; neither is it to start victimising entire groups for the actions of a few. But there’s an undeniable fact: some young, predominantly black, men are involved with a gun (and knife) culture which is taking lives. But it’s not just a problem for the black community, it’s a problem for the whole community. Closing down clubs is not an answer; it moves the problem elsewhere. But forcing those clubs to take more responsibility could be a step in the right direction.
I take what you are saying-especially about it being an issue for the whole communtiy, but my point is that much is stacked against youngsters in a society where everyone expects them to be criminals just based on their clothes, music choice etc.
My son has had to make choices, but it is very tough for him and at time touch and go. I have to trust that he will pull through adolescence without being arrested or killed. Half the time he walks the street in fear of his life just because he lives in Peckham, is 19 and black. He can’t go near Lewisham or Brixton. I have to beg him not to carry a knife himself-even though he is in very real danger and was nearly killed on a Sunday afternoon at 2pm in Bellenden rd picking up a pizza.(No-one helped him by phoning an ambulance by the way despite his pleas) He is not a gangster, but an ordinary younster with teachers for parents.He has the benefit of a loving mother and father still together after 25 years-many do not. Fear of violence on a daily basis is not a good way for youngsters to live. So what are we going to do about the situation ultimately? Camberwell always prides itself on being a happy mixed comminity-a place where we can all get on. Why are youngsters shooting each other in our midst? That’s not very nice is it? Why can’t a whole section of the community feel safe to walk the streets. (The section I am talking about is black youths)
What is the answer then folks? Suggestions would be good.….we’re a happy mixed local community-we should be able to think of some positive strategies.…
Realme; all of you.
What is truly great and totally unusual about Camberwell as a community is just how many wonderful people, from more kinds of backgrounds than we collectively can imagine, are here and able, given the chance, to get on very well with each other.
The vast majority who live in Camberwell are well balanced, caring and decent people whether black, brown, coloured, whatever that means, white, pink yellow, blue or white collar, rich or poor, well educated or ignorant. Most are well socialised, generally well rounded people with views on life that easily accommodate other people’s differences – We, as a community, just don’t have the possibility of meeting in contexts where we can get on with each other. And we don’t get what we, collectively, deserve when it comes to ‘quality of life’ in our area in spite the collective richness of our roots and backgrounds.
We lead parallel lives, all directly affected one way or another profoundly by the reality of the Streets around us, without the chance to come together properly to enjoy have a healthy, vibrant, integrated well functioning community.
We can change this.
Our legacy for our children should be that we don’t leave them to pick up the pieces of the way it is now.
There’s something wrong with computer clocks here my post and realme’s got totally mixed up there…
Realme
a part answer would be that your son and friends get involved with SE5 Forum (it’s not just necessarily SE5, it’s about Camberwell / whatever is local to us) and put their voice and views forward and help form what we want to achive — making the are better for everyone.
I just posted again and ended up before you realme, makes for an odd thread. Peter will probably sort this out when he sees it.
1) SE5 Forum — http://www.se5forum.org — join.
2) Get in touch with me via a personal message on the Forum website.
3) Encourage your son to do the same.
4) Let’s meet up and try to get something properly positive going.
By the way I’m Chair of SE5 Forum.
There is no indication in the reports that I have read that the boy who died was one of the gun men. People who new of him have commented that he was a decent young man. Maybe people have other information, but it is a tragedy that a young man is dead and I’m not sure it is a good time to be make assumptions about his involvement in crime.
I live in camberwell since 3 months now and I’m from holland, things like this do happen over there, but not this close to your home and that many times, it does scare me a bit.. But on the other hand.. I’ve never felt threatend or scared in my neighbourhood.. maybe it is because i’m quite open-minded and I don’t really care what people look like.. if they’re black or white, skater or gangster. I don’t feel comfortable in Brixton though. Maybe that’s because it’s more like a black-people-only neighbourhood, of course it isn’t, but that’s the feeling I get when I walk on the street in Brixton. Plus there are a lot of homeless people and junky’s on the street there.. Please, I don’t mean any offence but you all probably have the same.. when a black man who came from a poor family and lived all his live in a very tiny house, with 10 little brothers and sister.. and then all of a sudden he leaves his places, goes to a white neighbourhood with nice big and proper houses where he doesnt know anybody and is the only blackman around, he wouln’d feel comfortable too, would he?
To give a quick reaction on Realme; In Holland we have a really mixed culture with al sorts of nationality’s.. and as you may know we are very open-mined and liberated people.. The majority of the Dutch people think that you can wear whatever you like to wear.. It doenst matter if you are gay, black, asian, ugly or pretty.. most of the time you won’t be judged by your looks, unless you are going for a job interview or something like that of course.
You said that your son has been searched by the police even more than 30 times. I don’t want to mean any disrespect, but I can’t believe that they did that just because he was walking on the street. It was either his looks, his friends with whom he was hanging out, his attitude or whatever what got him into trouble. I understand that the police search people with cartain looks.. I mean.. if you choose to look like a “gangster” that’s fine with me, but you can expect to be searched every once in a while.. You can think about the consequences (don’t know if I spelled that right) before you do something, and that’s the same with your looks.. If you want to look like a gangster, that’s fine, but please do know that gangsters (most of the time) are not very kind people and other people (the society) will be scared of you. In my opinion it makes sence..
Please note that I don’t mean any disrespect or something, my english isnt that good yet, so sometimes I can’t find the right words to tell exactly what I mean
“Instead of worrying about moving away and the prices of your proerty, perhaps you could do something to help“
I’m not sure that this is very fair. Ewookie did have people firing machine guns outside his front door. Also, I think it’s only you has mentioned property prices (not sure this is really the issue)?!
Realme — I have sympathy with your son’s situation. It is a fact that young black men are often hassled by the police unfairly. It is sad that so many young people have to grow up in such a stressful environment.
Thanks for all your posts. I will join the SE5 forum Mark. I also wanted to say that I don’t have any sympathy for gun toting criminals.…but what I think is important is that sometimes we examine our assumptions. As a white person living within a black family for many years I know how damaging those assumptions can be. The instant assumption that the boy who was shot was a criminal.….just as the police assumed my son was a criminal when he got stabbed, instead of looking for the perpetrator. Our assumption are what damagages our community and we need to keep our eye on them always. Love to you all.
Realme :
Your posts have humbled me. I will admit that I initially thought about the recent shootings only in terms of how they could affect me. I even went around reassuring people who were concerned that I live in the area that ‘I’m safe because these armed gangs only shoot each other’. Your postings have brought home to me what an ignorant viewpoint this is.
I am ashamed that I was more bothered about how the event would affect Camberwell’s reputation than the death of a young boy.
You are right — this is a problem and a tragedy for all of us, not an inconvenience to some and a tragedy to others. We all need to directly involve ourselves in discussion and try to come together as a community to solve these issues. I realise this is no easy task.
I am sorry your son is scared. I think we are all scared — scared of each other and scared to do the right thing. It’s easier to batten down the hatches, freeze people out and live in our own secure, gated little worlds. What a very sad situation.
I am very moved by all these comments and concerns.
Sorry for the weird timeline; should all be resolved now.
I agree Amanda. Many of us act as individuals, when what makes a society is its people. Camberwell has such a wonderful mix of people, great pubs and lovely parks. But all too often there are people among us who ruin it and create an atmosphere of animosity – whether it be through gun crime, littering, leaving their loosely tied Somerfield bags next to a huge wheelie bin so the foxes can spill open the contents all over the street (major bugbear!). I feel if people just took the time not to push past each other, have respect for their environment and speak to each other with benevolence, we’d have less of these type of tragic events taking place on our doorstep.
A strange footnote: a friend of mine tells me of a Ugandan minicab driver who picked up a customer, on the night of the Aristocrats killing, who held a knife to him and told him to drive round the backstreets of Camberwell. The fare was a black and paranoid man. The cabbie eventually saw the police cordon and drove through it. The police immediately saw the situation and hauled the bloke out. There is much to be said for having police on the streets.
No wonder we are scared or prejudiced when we don’t know the truth and are just given euphemisms. The magpies in Lucas Gardens probably know more then we do — sometimes you can see seven of them, seven for a secret never to be told. The gun culture men are hardly going to tell us on Camberwell Online the secrets of their pecking order, or why they wear guns like aftershave, or why it’s cool to kill, or whatever it is. It’s probably all boringly obvious, like Northern Ireland, just nasty, and not all dark voodoo like we fear it is. Still, we are lucky to have Realme explain a few simple things to us so carefully, we can be a bit less scared. We really do live in a daft, scarifying Daily Mail culture. We should think in different ways.
Welcome, Realme. Your comments have really made me think about these situations.
I think a lot of these horrible, tragic scenarios come about from two simple human faults: 1)The misconception that revenge actually solves a problem, and 2)The fear of losing face in front of our peers.
I really try not to prejudge people that i see, even when they appear intimidating; hanging out in moody hooded clusters in bus shelters etc, but the media propagates fear and, over time, gradually wears even the most optimistic people down into a state of terror at the sight of certain groups. (Currently it’s young black males, before that it was Indians, a hundred years ago it was the Chinese community in Limehouse). Ultimately, this makes people from these ethnic / cultural groups feel alienated, defensive and downright persecuted, and quite justifiably, resentful and angry. It seems that currently that resentment and anger is taken out on easier targets (ie each other), rather than being focused toward the root of the problem.
I saw a young black kid get onto the bus the other morning, there were plenty of other school kids on there and as soon as he saw them the lad’s expression changed into the most aggressive “don’t mess with me i’m psycho” screw face i think i’ve ever seen. It’s horrible to see that young people have to be like this as a means of a kind of preemptive self defense. really makes me sad actually.
A black on black gun murder has happened, and it keeps happening around here. And to some extent these crimes do cast a shadow across your percption of black people you don’t know. So you are always having to override that initial negativity in your mind, especially if you are walking around Camberwell at night — if you go past two black guys with their hoods up, the worst does cross your mind. And I think, if you don’t want me to be fearful, let me see your face. But they are probably thinking ‘fuck you, you already think I am going to mug you, well I’ll play along with that and shit you up some, as you already think the worst of me anyway’. I am not sure how all this links together: gun crime, fear of crime, teenagers hurting one another, parental responsibility, schools, personal responsibility. It does seem very intractable to me. What can we do, someone help.
I am not sure teenagers feeling threatened by other teenagers is peculiar to the Black community. Young men are mostly likely to be attacked by other young men whatever there colour and to some extent whatever their class too. The difference with this neck of the woods, although it is not unique, is the gun and knife culture, which makes it more lethal.
hi Rocky, Yeah I fully agree with your points here. People bully and hurt each other whatever colour or culture their from. Kids at my (reasonably good) school used to force other kids to eat dogshit if they didn’t ‘fit in’. But the knife and gun culture makes stuff much, much more frightening even than that. I do reckon there is a fair bit of tough guy street cred bullshit to be had from moodily swaggering around with your hood up, but i also think its used as a self defense tactic because of this. And there’s a lot of scared kids out there who think that the only way to protect themselves is through acting like the big man. It must be really easy to get sucked into some dark and dangerous life choices if you’re already in that kind of mindset.
Lulu (and everyone else) — I seem to remember a mad old bint called Margaret Thatcher (or something like that) once stating that “There is no such thing as society, only individual men,individual women and families” …I happen to think that maybe that’s why we have young kids who should be concentrating on more positive ways to pass their time maiming and shooting each other dead in 2006…Never mind the carrot,what a golden legacy she left behind
eusebiovic.
I’d plump for agreement with you there.
I grew up in Newcastle Upon Tyne. A lot of my school exerience was grim. My abiding memory is constantly being in fear of mindless, utterly random and totally unprovoked violence meted out indiscriminately on anyone happening across the path of numerous boys who terrorised the neighbourhoods I walked through to and from school. All my friends experienced the same. We lived with permanent low level terror.
Occasionally I found myself on the periphery of big gangs of boys aged from six to sixteen facing each other out on common land armed with chains, crowbars, thick electrical cable, flicknives and rocks. Scenes from mediaeval folklore. I never saw the outcome of these pitched battles — always slipped away just as the fighting began — and I never underestood why they faught each other. The boys collectively behaved as though this barbaric and terrifying behaviour was utterly normal. Showing any degree of fear, or questioning the point of it in any way, was a sure fire way to get a smack in the mouth or a good headbutting.
A friend from Norfolk who I met at college years later said his experience of Yarmouth was much the same.
All that violence and stupidity was about forty years ago and was an unadulterated white thing of course. It clearly still resonates in our society now, variations on a theme.
We’re still crawling out of the dark ages my friends.
Three black men are shot in Camberwell with a sub-machine gun .A man is dead. Camberwell road is closed off all day resulting in turmoil:buses on diversion, people not being able to get to work. This incredible story did not make national news.A sub-machine gun! People shot with it in the street! Do you think the murder of a white man with a machine gun would have passed with so little comment by those who live outside of Camberwell?
I cannot believe some of the ignorant comments I have read on this page!
Non of you knew Big Show, so what gives any of you the right to judge him!
He was a soft, kind hearted, clever young man who was tryin to teach others how to live a good life!
He was not mixed up in any of the goings on within or outside the club and was unfortunatly cought up in something that was nothing to do with him or his friends!
Why do people make assumptions? Ignorace!
Jam was not mixed up in any gum crime and the fact that his life was taken is not his fault!
He was 19 and only just beginning his life!
It is a shame that we do not have more young black men like Jam, instead of silly little boys who think they are big by carrying a gun and killing innocent people!
IT HAS GOT TO STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clever? It doesn’t seem particularly clever of him to be hanging around outside a dodgy club at 2.30am on a Tuesday night, when gang violence had just erupted. Big Show indeed.
welcome to the new brixton camberwell used to be a nice place to live well every flat that is vacant the council give it to blacks what do you expect you brought it on yourselfs
This is what we want to know. We don’t know much about black life on this blogsite. We discuss dinners in restaurants — the langoustines in this place tap dance on your plate better than they do in that place, kind of thing.
So we don’t know if the gun slingers are like you say, silly little boys who think guns are bling, or whether they’re nasty gangsters from Brixton who’ll kill you simply because you’re the wrong kind of black.
It’s not really about colour, it’s about Camberwell. If this was an Eltham blogsite we’d be fed up with the white gangsters there, or Woolwich, what a nightmare! Welling, agh!
Personally, I like anyone who can make something — it might be just a phrase like “He was soft, kind hearted clever young man.” “It’s a shame that we do not have more young black men like Jam.” That was good. Seriously, you could read that out at the funeral and there would be absolute silence — it would totally shame the perpetrators who are still alive.
the shooting outside aristocrats the police were called then the police went away 5 min after the police went the shooting started in the window of the nightclub in question have got a stsement saying it took place at 1.30am and it didnt take place outside the club what a load of lies the club is a run down place just a place for trouble people to go its been on the cards for a long time i mean look at redstar across the road they call that a club well it isnt its just a dump where they use the upstairs to house any imergrant to rent there flats nightclubs are not nightclubs these days
why dont the police ever wake up …silver buckel pub again what a dump full of trouble and yet the place is till open see southwark will never learn ..BIG COMMENT WELL DONE SOUTHWARK all you do is give a license out for a quick buck give a license out to a real nightclub not a smokescreen for a drug den
Flippin’ ‘eck, the langoustines have started arguing. It’s true though that Aristocrats shouldn’t be here, this is not Brixton or LA.
ben patio — WHAT AN IGNORANT MAN!!!!!
He had been on a night out with his friends and was unfortunate to have been cought up in it all!
You cant help where you live and others who live there!
But because of SMALL MINDED people like yourself things will never change because no one is willing to stand up and be counted=, everyone just wasnts to run away from it all!!
everywhere has got its problems!
Not just camberwell!
london as a whole, birmingham, bradford, even nice little places in the country where young girls and kidnapped and raped on there way home from from school.
Its not a race thing, or a class thing, you are just so caught up in the media and bullshit fed to you by people who have never lived in these ares, dontknow the people that have been hurt!
rob as for you, well I think your statement says enough about you! SCUM!!!
Stop judging and strat helping to stomp this out!
Dagmar I do believe that these are just stupid little boys as I believe that true gansters are more worried about making money and dealing with other gansters than going out and killing innocent people.
Have any of you stoped to think about his family and friends who are now having to deal with this loss?
Of course your not, your too worried about that fact that it was near your homes.
Well i dont think any of you need to worrie as none of you would be out later than 8pm and none of you go out with your mates for a night out!
well lion as i know camberwell green very well the boy in question that was shot down wasnt inocent he was known as a trouble maker not a poor boy who got shot trust me they knew who they was after and they got there target
thats all im saying
rob i would also like you ask you how you and i both live in camberwell if we are white and they only give homes to black people?
YOU KNOW NOTHING!!!
They werent looking for him and they never got there target!
You obvusly dont know camberwell very well!
And you certainly dont know Jam!
And i would like to point out to you that on wed as i was walking past the police who were talking about him and even they where sayin he wasnt a bad boy, he was more of a gentle giant!!!!
So untill you know the truth dont comment!
SCUM!!
what ever like i know nothing like the other boy who got shot was done a while back for carrying a fire arm but like you said i know nothing lol as in for scum i dont use guns the people you surport do so you are the scum
i dont carry guns the idiots you surport do carry guns so your the scum as in i know nothing the other boy that got shot was done a while back for carring a copy fire arm but like you said i know nothing lol wake and small the coffee
I would also like to ask you all, that if they shut down Aristocrats and Ivory Arch, all the clubs in London where does it go then?
Will it spread into the parks, the shops, the streets??
Why were these kids, and camberwell kids in general, carrying guns and why were they shooting at each other? And Lion, what do you mean by ‘standing up and being counted’ and whatever it means, will it stop these kids carrying guns and shooting at each other?
It seems to me the reasons for a gun culture are very complex and will take a whole plethora of policies that deal with parenting, teaching, out of school activities for kids, policing style,a more responsible media and marketting etc. In the mean time the council and the police need to reduce the immediate risks to the neighbourhood, and if that means shutting trouble night clubs down, then they should do it.
It ia a complex issue indeed and one that needs addressing in the kind of way people are doing here. I think what is most worrying is that the violence is affecting more and more youngsters. It starting to eat into the fabric of their whole lives, something which should be of concern to us all. I chose to bring my children up in London because of the benefits. I have been able to live in Peckham with my black husband without fear and without us being unusual. If you want to know what being famous is like, try eating in a rural Frence retaurant as a mixed family and see how it feels! London was great for my kids. I suppose people live in Camberwell because they like its vibrant mix. But we want to keep it that way. We have to take the rough with the smooth. We can’t enjoy the delights of our Greek Olive shops, our kebabs and our Jamaican patties without being truly aware of the communities that serve them to us. It moves beyond a woolly delight in multiculturalism to embracing and welcoming the community as a whole. So it’s our responsibilty to ask ourselves have to ask ourselves why young black people want to kill each other. It’s our problem, our community problem. Otherwise go and live somewhere else. I think much lies with trying to undestand each other better.
Our schools (and I am a teacher ) are already becoming either black or white by parental choice. We fear that which we don’t understand , so one solution is better undestanding. That can take place in small ways. Ways in which we can all particiapte. Get to know the man that serves you your kebabs. Say hello to the hoodie on the bus, or at least give him a smile. I know, by experience that 90% of young people put their hoods up because they are afraid of other young people, not because they want to commit a crime on you. But do you know that? If not how can you find out? We need to talk more, relax more.…get to know each other more. Otherwise we are not a true mixed community.
I don’t disagree with any of the comments here , regarding crime. Crime rots all around it and needs to be dealt with. Yet it’s not dealt with effectively in my experience. My dealings with the police as the mother of a black son have not been happy.…so I have to struggle with my assumptions about them. And I do and try to teach my son that not all police are the same. And that is the issue. White guilt is a waste of time. Knocking sections of society is a waste of time. The key lies in keeping open minds and I am heartened that this debate has shown that people are more than willing to do that still. Let’s keep trying.It is an effort. It’s hard for me sometimes not to get totally cynical and bitter when I see how my son has been treated by all around him. But this is the work we have to do. The boy who stabbed my son is as much a victim as he was. His mother probably as sad if not sadder than me. We are talking about the future of a whole group of children in the community here and all crime and fear has a root cause. Although I am still not sure exactly what that is.
PS My son has read your posts…thnaks for taking the time and trouble and special thanks to Amanda.
Rocky mentions “policing style”, and I think that’s important to remember — bearing in mind the experiences of Realme’s son.
What I like about this blog is how open it is to debate. I’ve just taken the last 56 postings in one sitting and what a sitting it has been!
I’m conscious that realme must be getting sick of direct questions, so I won’t ask one, but make an observation. If the police have been unfair to your son, bear in mind that the Met is populated with more than it’s fair share of people who do not believe in any sort of “rainbow” society. It is much whiter (and, I suspect, prone to racism) than it should be for London, but responsibility for that, in part, rests with the non-white (sorry for the shorthand!) communities in London in not joining it’s ranks in significant numbers.
I have lived in Camberwell for 20 years and love the place — my friends are bored rigid hearing me bleat on about it. I’m not frightened of going to Lewisham and cannot understand why anyone would be.
As to the shooting — I think it’s really tragic that a 19 year old ends up dying on the street, before they have had the opportunity to live their life. Though I don’t believe in any form of deity or afterlife, my thoughts are with him and his family.
I agree that the police should be racially more representative of the population that they are at present, and give them credit for trying to recruit more from non-white communities and hope that they will succeed in this. But they must take full responsibility for the style of policing that we see now. They stereotype. Too many of them abuse the authority given by their uniform. So they stop young Muslim men, they stop young black men, they stop young men of any colour or race driving certain types of car, and by and large they do it in a way that stores up resentment.
It is no excuse to say that they have crime statistics in their favour — that certain types of crime are largely committed by young Muslim or black or white men. If we have a community in which the police can treat any young man — picked up at random — as an actual or potential criminal, and if they have our support in this, we should be ashamed of ourselves.
Years ago there was a TV series which allowed members of the public to make mini programmes in which they could put their point of view. One programme was made by a young black man who described how much it upset him when, as he was walking along the street, he saw other pedestrians cross the road or hurry away from him because they ASSUMED he was going to mug them. He knew the crime statistics too, he knew why they did it, but he still thought it was unfair because he wished them nothing but good.
I take your point Mushtu, but believe me it is a tough job being a black police officer. At the risk of sounding boring with my anecdotes, my sister in law has been a firefighter in London for fifteen years and what she’s been through as a black woman in a white man’s world would start a whole new thread! My son and all his black friends don’t trust the police any more and are a million miles away from wanting to join. The police and the fire service work very hard at recruiting a proper mixed force that represents the community and do try to ensure that anything racist that is reported is dealt with-but it’s the constant daily stuff that goes on-bananas put on your seat-people urinating in your boots and constant jibes about your culture. You have to be very tough to survive that (and my sister in law is-she’s leading hand on her fire engine and will be a station commander soon, so not all is bad news)
I don’t expect the Met to believe in a Rainbow society-just to do their job professionally. I am a white teacher. I don’t expect to treat any child differently to another. If a black child doesn’t work, I will pull them up. If they tell me I am picking on them-I will say “Yes I am, because you’re not working and achieveing your best” I do my job. That’s all the police need to do. Follow the PACE stop and search code. Don’t put young people in handcuffs for nothing. Don’t provoke them and then rough them up when they get mad. Don’t assume every young person is a potential criminal. Surely that isn’t too much to ask?
Rocky The Milkman — All your concerns in post 55, go directly back to the mental state of the majority of the British Public who all subscribe to the Thatcherite maxim which I described in post 49 — As Mark said in some ways we are still crawling out of the dark ages…the human condition evolves painfully slow…
Go down to the memorial site for Jamail Newton and have a look around. The first time I was down there I saw this guy sitting reading (I thought) a piece of foolscap paper. Then when I went back, there were posted up three foolscap pieces of paper written in Jamail’s memory by a friend, who was obviously the same guy I’d seen sitting there. If you read his testimonial you will find an elegy to a friend who died, but also the same confusion about what is happening, why it is happening, and what can be done about it.
Ben — I’ve often been outside bars and nightclubs at 2.30am when shit has gone off. If it’s got nothing to do with me, I don’t assume I’m going to get shot in the head. I understand your anger, but in this case I think it’s misdirected.
Aristocrats must be shut down now, and I don’t give a shit about the wailing of Eyo Henshaw. If he had any respect for the memory of an innocent man, he’d close the club himself. Fuck him and all his Fascist kind.
Am I drunk or has a post been removed? It came before Ben Patio’s post and was about the fact that Jamail Newton was being accusing of being a gang-banger without any evidence to that affect. I’m pretty sure there was a post there, and as far as I can recall what the person said was not derogatory or offensive, so why has it been removed?
A bunch of comments got picked up by the spam trap — for whatever reason, if one comment is identified as spam, all past comments are also identified. I’ve been through and restored all I can find.
I assure you, I’ve never once removed any genuine comment from this site.
This is very emotional and I find it very upsetting that anyone no matter what their background, or where they are from, should ever find themselves in a situation where they are either being killed or killing other people.
Killings, any sort of this level of violence, are a stage way too far — for anyone, no matter how dysfunctional their normality. Who in all this really has taken pleasure in the outcome of a gun being fired or of fireworks being set off in a place full of people?
I’m sure that a good number of people who have posted here would be prepared to put some real effort into taking this extraordinary dialogue further and act to help make this awful situation stop.
Emotional name calling and parrying each other’s posts over levels of intimate local knowledge isn’t getting anyone anywhere.
We should arrange a meet up out of all this, agree in advance some rules of engagement, some positive results that we, as a community, would like to see come out as a result, and get together and take it further.
I reckon.
People who have posted here are,
… anxious.
Well everyone, as Bob Marley says.…“One love” It’s all about Fear on one side and Love and understanding for the human race on the other, however twee that sounds. Let’s hope some kind of love shines through. I am hopeful as long as people can raise these issues and at least engage in really thinking about them. It has gladdened by heart. Love to you all xxxxx
Realme, it’s good to hear from an actual real teacher in the area. What I want for my white 3 year old is to go to an interesting mixed local primary. What I face is the council placing her in Oliver Goldsmiths because it’s the nearest. This is not a mixed school but predominantly African. It’s only right that schools reflect their catchment area, but I want my nipper to go to a mixed Camberwell school not an African school. What should I do?
Jamail was not carrying a gun and was not shooting at anybody!
It saddens me to see the behaviour of some of you people.
I agree that people who carry guns are the scum of the earth
Lord Henry — That letter was written by a close friend who very destraught at the loss of his friend, it has come from the heart and what has been put in that letter would put most of you to shame for the comments you have made!
Known of you know these boys but the fact that because they are young black men, in hoodies asumptions are already made!
You really need to stop believing all that you read in the press as they do not know the facts.
one thing I have learnt from all this is to stop judging!
I used to sit at home with my paper and read the storys and make the same small minded comments alot of you have made.
But it wasnt until it got closer to home and I knew the story etc that I realised the media really is evil and they will write whatever makes them money.
I was sitting on the bus listening to someone talk about the situation in the same way many of you have, and i put my hands up that i too used to make these judgments.
But i will no longer be the sheep and follow what everyone else has written or is thinking!
Its time to let Jamail rest in peace!
Hi
Speaking as someone who grew up, and lived in Dunblane, I have to tell you that we are on this Earth to protect kids from harm, even from one another.
If we fail in this we are a desolate people.
To follow Realme’s quote — There ain’t no hiding place from the Father of Creation.
Agape and peace.
Andrew Mishmash
I read that letter today, Lion, it was very good, so was the poem near it. I want to hear what you think — I’m one of those who don’t get out (that was funny). It’s bleak, though, this.
They want to hang Saddam Hussein. They should say, “We’re not like you, we don’t do that.” Instead, they’re mediaeval, too.
You get my point. These are not very nice times, with not a lot to look up to.
Dagmar
I guess the question you need to ask is why is Oliver Goldsmith predominantly African, in a mixed area? The answer lies in parental choice. And often it is white parental choice. In my experience white parents don’t want a school to be too black. The question is why? What do you think will happen to your child? What are you afraid of? Follow the answer and I suspect you will find the solution!
Firstly I’m really sorry for the kids family – its shit to lose anyone especially when their so young and have so much ahead of them.. its just not fair.
A question for anyone: why are the black only clubs such as Aristocrats more popular than the other clubs where everyone is welcome? would people not meet and mix better if people went to mixed clubs?
Also why are there never any witnesses when so many see the incident? I understand from Realme comment 33 about fear — but the answer to fear is surely not then carry a knife or gun yourself but to work together as a community guide the wrongdoers through carrot & stick I would have thought?.. not to brush it under the carpet , pretend its not happening or protect family members or friends because doing so does not help them or the community?
There is much anger and animosity on both sides but we all know that prejudices are wrong as many of us will have close friends from different communities.. so rise above & ignore those who cultivate prejudices as bigoted or more likley less eductated.
Most important — All communities have to trust the police no matter how much they have let you down in the past as not doing so is making yourself prejudice against THEM and as established prejudice is a bad thing. The police are not always the most intelligent or nice people to approach for ANYONE but they are what we have to live with and no one should think themselves above it.
PS Lion & Rob – You are so similar to each other its funny– both lacking education & awareness (the bad spelling isn’t the only give away)
I’m reminded of the guy I met at Poet’s Corner a few years ago. Sandwich board strapped to him with an old Evening Standard headline: ‘It’s Going To Get Worse’.
Lion — you’re right, we are too ready to make assumptions — bad assumptions — about people. Don’t judge us too harshly, I think that underneath most of us want the same thing, just to live peacefully together. But how do we achieve that? It’s not easy.
I was very moved by Jamail’s memorial, the letters and the poem, so many people miss him.
There is more to life than spelling.
Indeed! Although spelling is important in anyone’s language!
You are so fair, Realme! I take your point about fear and Oliver Goldsmiths. Still, on this blog (6 October 2006) it says Camberwell made the front page of the Independent for having the greatest ethnic CONTRAST in the whole of the UK, meaning there are large amounts of one kind of people in one small area (e.g. one ward in Camberwell is now 41% African).
So now many people can fear their kids will be in a minority at school and therefore different and stand out and maybe get bullied, kids being kids — not just some!
I don’t understand Camberwell any more, except it’s clear that many people feel under more pressure than they should be. Like Bukowski333 says, the fear becomes paranoia.
That’s why people move to Penge.
Yes Dagmar, but I would ask the question why has Camberwell got the greatest ethnic contrast? It wasnt that way when I first came to live here 30 years ago. I think it has a lot to do with economics and also perhaps the housing stock. The house where I have lived for 25 years is a terraced 4 bedroom house in a mixed street near the art college. As young marrieds we could afford to buy a house here in 1981.Many of those house were inhabited by West Indians, who cluubed together in “pardner” schemes do they could have somewhere to bring up theiir families. Now they are dying and their children are moving out to Croydon and Bromley, where they can afford a house. Our children could never afford a house here now. But they are big family houses at a price that many more wealthy families want to live in.…
Many of these families are white middle class professionals. Fine.…anyone has a right to buy. The problem is that then they want a different community. They want things to be “nice” on their terms. They want to be able to say they live in a wonderful mixed community, but they want to change things to their view of nice.
And then the trouble starts. There is conflict as people want to do away with the ethnic takeaways and put in trendy cafes, they want the people who have always been sitting on the walls to stop doing it next to them. They want their kind of music-Jazz in the Park-picnics on the Green…and they want the local community who have been here for years to go somewhere else.
I grew up in a small village in South Wales. The community had been fairly stable rural community for 100s of years. Things began to change when people moved in from Bristol and commuted. THey wanted the village to be their idea of a rural idyll. And they started interfering and trying to create their idea of a charming village. Thats when problems began and a “them” and “us” situation started to develop. It got quite ugly at times.
Now if I wasnt part of a black family who had been living in the South London for years before I came, I would be like one of those people. I would want my rosy view of a multi ethnic community to be realised. Because I wouldnt have thought about people living in the community who are not like me. But it didnt happen like that for me and I have had my eyes opened. I have seen the very real struggle my husband, my children and all my extended black family have had to go through every day.
Anyway what is a minority? If we accept all members of a community as part of that community there is no minority. So your children wouldnt be part of a minority. They would be part of a community.
My children are often in a minority-when we go to Southwold for holidays, when we go for holidays to the Lakes.….but they are fine. My boy is still a wonderful happy chap even when the police harrass him constantly, old ladies suspect him, shops watch his every move. He still sings in the bath. I am sure your children will be fine too.
I’ve been following this discussion develop and been very impressed by how people are tackling these very difficult subjects. I must be quite persuadable because this discussion made me feel scared when it started and now I’m feeling all positive again. That’s not to say I didn’t go through a process. I’ve been thinking a lot about multicultural Camberwell, and my own position and experiences.
I’ve only lived in Camberwell for a year, having previously lived in Balham, in Clapham and most recently in Vauxhall. Going back now I don’t like what Clapham has become – it’s like a completely different place to when I first arrived in London. All the really useful shops selling things that you might actually need have shut down. The restaurants look like chains and I don’t feel much empathy with the daytime posh mums or evening lads on a night out. I feel more comfortable in Camberwell than I do in Clapham and I feel safer. I’d hate to see Camberwell turn into Clapham (but I’d love to have its cinema and tube, but maybe its impossible to have the facilities and keep what I like about Camberwell). By the way, the social demographic that far and away makes me feel the most uncomfortable is drunk white lads in big groups like you often see rampaging around Clapham in the early hours. It’s not good to stir up the ‘who’s better’ argument – for the balance that’s how I feel.
Regarding schools, I remember my first day at school very clearly as I didn’t speak any English and no one else spoke Greek (except my sister, who was hugely embarrassed and pretended she didn’t know me). I don’t have a home town and I don’t belong to just one social group – but I’m happy with many different people and I feel like the part of my brain that understands how to communicate with different groups was opened when I was a child due to the mix of cultures I experienced. Growing up with a mixed bunch of people gives you a different vision. I don’t have kids yet but I’m not far off and what currently worries me most is not race but how much more ‘knowing’ London kids seem to be. We were innocents by comparison.
Regarding fear and crime, I’ve just had a look at the Met’s crime figures for areas. It’s interesting to do a comparison between your postcode and other parts of London:
http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures
I’ve realised that I am far safer in SE5 than I was in my last home in SE11. I compared about four London postcodes and there’s not so much in it crime-wise. You’re certainly safer in Camberwell than Covent Garden. There’s more ‘Violence Against the Person’ here than in Clapham for example, less burglary than in Westminster, and SE5 seems to have a significantly lower ‘Sexual Offences’ record than any other postcode I typed in.
Clap…, Clap…, Clap…, Clap (that’s slow ironic clapping by the way).
You play your parts so well.
And you, Sir, are perfectly cast in the role of sneering cynic.
Oops and there was me thinking it was a nasty disease!
DofB.
Can’t be civil but can sneer from the sidelines…
Sounds like a school report doesn”t it. Pip pip old chap very, um, daring.
Don’t suppose you’d come up with that Clap Trap if you were posting openly.
Dear Mr Duke of Bickleigh,
Your post is lost on me.
So with that in mind, have you got anything interesting to add to this discourse?
I bet he’s not even a real Duke.
I, however, am a real Lord.
This is a lovely glass of sherry.
Realme, thanks for balancing the debate a little.
However, re ethnic takeaways, I need to point out that most “white middle class professionals” (WMCPs) in the area prize nothing more than the ethnic groceries and restaurants, whether Ivory Coast, Vietnamese, Ethiopian etc. They also have a horror of the arrival of chain cafes like Starbucks, because that way lies homogeneity.
What ethnic minorities and WMCPs usually want is exactly the same thing. Good education. Better public transport. Low crime. Fresh food and non-threatening areas where anyone is welcome to relax and drink. These include independent quality cafes, which are perhaps more appreciated by ethnic minorities when done well, since much of the best coffee and chocolate will have been imported from their own mother countries, and those cultures already have more of an al fresco culture than WMCPs.
You’ve got to remember the real damage has been done by certain council planners assuming that all ethnic minority communities’ needs are comprised in McDonalds, Iceland, rap music and Fried Chicken from whichever American state you choose.
We need to fight against the presumption that ethnic minorities and WMCPs want different things from the community. Their needs are not at odds, in my experience.
The perception that their needs are different has led the Council to discourage local shopping by removing parking facilities, since the interests of local shops are perceived as a white middle class conceit, whereas the majority of shops in Camberwell are run by ethnic minorities!!!
I was going to make the same point — although not as eloquently, of course!
A big part of the charm of Camberwell is that we haven’t been inundated by the chains, and the variety of foods we have here is pretty good. Having said that, I would like to have more fresh produce available — and not in the same way as Peckham, which has 30 shops selling the same 30 types of vegetables.
I’d welcome more deli-style shops — not expensive faux-Italian delis, but places to buy decent meats and cheeses. With five fried chicken shops within 5 minutes of each other, there must be space for a little more variety.
Aristocrats, oh dear.
Point taken Regeneru and some very good ones. I too am in danger from making assumptions it seems.…I remember Peckham High St when it had department stores and a Marks and Spencers-so agree with what you are saying. And I agree with you completely when you say that we all want the same thing. So what would we have in an ideal, utopian Camberwell? And how can we get it? (Let’s not start knocking the street drinkers again…they have their place-even Lord Henry with his sherry bottle)
In my ideal Camberwell there wouldn’t be any of those evil fried chicken shops (KFC or otherwise) and there’d be a decent bookshop in Butterfly Walk (which of course we had till recently).
Why are we apologising for wanting good shops in Camberwell and wanting to get rid of hoodies and drunks on the street. Bizaare. Camberwell hasnt got any good places to eat all garbage, pizza pomodoro, seymours,tadim please these places dont take pride in their food and use the worst ingredients. I agree camberwell is great for its mixed group of people but lets try and not kid ourselves by saying we have good places to eat because we dont yet, hopefully that will change. Good places are the olive shop jazz at the crypt late night drinking but good restaurants not in a million years. I think more police on the streets would be a help and make the area feel safer. The cctv is never on and the gun youths in my opinion and you may feel shocked should be rounded up and beaten with sticks untill they realise how ignorant and stupid they are. Regular beatings on these youths or men or drugdealers. Fried chicken places should all go for sure and that would be a start.
Sorry but I’d welcome a Starbucks with open arms!!
In my ideal central Camberwell we’d keep Mozzarella Pomodoro, Tadim, The Castle, The dark Horse, Hoa Viet, Pauls Olive Shop. We’d lose several of the off licences, a coupla chicken shops, one of the kebab shops, and almost everything in Butterfly Walk. I’d love a really nice deli to open up and I’d be happy to have a Pizza Express and a Starbucks, and ecstatic to have an M&S food hall or a Waitrose, but I don’t think we’ll be seeing them any time soon.
…JJ I completely disagree, I’m a regular at Tadim and Mozzarella Pomodoro and they are passionate about the food they offer and the service they provide. Every single meal I’ve taken at Mozz Pom has been superb, and the welcome and service has been wonderful, and I’m not particularly easy to please!!
Ive had food poisoning from Hoa Viet twice. Goodluck with that. M and S and Waitrose. No way thats what we dont want we want individuals opening local personal businesses with good quality food and products. Keep out chains like Subway which is pure garbage and greggs bleached flour bakery. Organic butcher a deli and a good coffee shop. Like the tea house.
Sounds like you have never eaten at a good italian
When I used to go out, I really enjoyed the restaurant at the back of the Bolu, especially when George the main cook was cooking. The ingredients weren’t the finest, but the methodology was good. That’s what Camberwell’s good at, methodology. [Sings.] “You need — meth-o-dology, good old methodology.”
Zara’s was the same when Zara was there. A sneak look at the ingredients in their cellar showed it was the same cash & carry ingredients as every other Indian, but it was Zara’s methodology that made it good. All manner of people went there, WMCPs, EBBTs, HSJKs, the lot.
Bickleigh. Bitter? Yes, you could get a pint of Courage there not that long ago for two quid and meet all manner of people by ten quid.
How times change. I read in last Friday’s Standard that teenagers could purchase a machine gun from a 14-year-old girl in Colindale, until recently.
JJ…Ermm..Why did you go back to Hoa Viet if they’d already given you food poisoning the first time…?
In any case I’m not going to apologise for hoping that Camberwell will attract some successful chain stores and restaurants in the future, I don’t see why a decent area can’t consist of both independents and chains. I agree that we can do without a Subway though…
You need to ask yourself why are so many people passonate about this area because its different not a mx of chains. You want chains move to Clapham or Nottinhill. Hoa Viet i went there again because I was desperate.Succesful chains are designed to make as much money as possible from blinded people who dnt mind spending over the odds for crap disguised as quality but hey starbucks you like so much why are the students in san franciscio boycotting and firebombing their stores?
Speaking strictly as a coffee-lover, I wouldn’t welcome Starbucks/other coffee chains.
However, one phenomenon I have also observed is the devil’s pact between coffee chain clients and the chains themselves, whereby the chain charges exhorbitant prices for chicory flour oops I mean coffee that only certain “people of quality” could pay, i.e. much more than a local independent and far more than the drinks is worth, retail rates or no.
In this way, the Starbucks shareholders are gladsome, and the clients achieve their aim of entering an atmosphere that has been cleansed of certain riff-raff which might otherwise disturb their repose, in order to read their Telegraph and check their Wi-Fi e-mails in perfect equanimity.
Not that I am suggesting all their clients are like that.
It is also worth noting their eco-policies and how they recently objected to the Ethiopian Government’s attempt to copyright their own coffee bean so they could have a presence on the global trade market and pay a living wage.
However, we all have fingers in inconscionable pies, and I wouldn’t ask anyone to wear a hair shirt out of their devotion to coffee chains. To each his and her own.
Guns can be eradicated from our streets. I propose a mass march on the streets of camberwell and throught the white houses to the estates of people against guns. Outside the police station. Thats smething we can do protest. If we want to do smething thats a start showing how we dont want this in our area.Organise a protest outside these clubs on the nights where its crowded and lines are forming outside.
Guns can be eradicated from our streets. I propose a mass march on the streets of camberwell and throught the white houses to the estates of people against guns. Outside the police station. Thats smething we can do protest. If we want to do smething thats a start showing how we dont want this in our area.Organise a protest outside these clubs on the nights where its crowded and lines are forming
I find the big chains useful for one major purpose: providing toilets. Being of sound constitution this isn’t something I need in my local area, I can always go home if caught short. However, when I’m traveling abroad I never begrudge Starbucks and McDonalds a place on the highstreet since they (generally) have well maintained loos.
We should organise a protest, demonstration throught the streets of camberwell anti gun and drugs march throught the white houses and estates, to the police station to show on we are not scared and two we will not accept it
We should organise a protest and peaceful march against guncrime and drugs throught the streets of camberwell to the white houses to the estates to the police station and council. To show we are not scared and want change. What do you think?
We should organise a protest and peaceful march against guncrime and drugs throught the streets of camberwell to the white houses to the estates to the police station and council. To show we are not scared and want change. What do you think?
Maybe it’s finally time that we all starting speaking and giving some of the buffoons in charge at Lambeth and Southwark Council a jolt, so that all things Camberwell don’t get swept under the carpet — I don’t want this place to become annonymous, I want it to keep it’s identity — I love the area, I just think that collectively we all need to raise our game to improve many aspects of our criminally neglected neighbourhood — regardless of whatever social class,race or house you live in, we’ve got to start making some noise collectively against the powers that be…for eg: Camberwell Police Station needs to be a full time working police station for starters, because the Met Police do after all make up a hefty chunk of our Council Tax Bills…maybe a cinema and a commitment from the councils to subsidise independent businesses that have a responsible social charter rather than just lowest common denominator chain stores…
Boy oh boy! The number of postings that this item has generated is amazing. However, folks (and you know who you are) — let’s keep it civil, please. What is the point of labelling people “ignorant”, simply because they don’t agree with you? Or, come to that, saying that the crime we experience is down to the Council “giving homes to blacks”. I’m white, and the Council “gave” me one too. It had something to do with my scoring sufficient points on the allocations list as do all home allocations by the Council.
Can I also raise one further point that comes out of many of the postings above — namely, that fear of young black people in areas like Camberwell is all something to do with what’s going on inside the (collective?) head of Camberwell’s white population. I don’t think that’s the case, personally. My experience is that there are a number of really anti-social teenagers and young adults in Camberwell and whilst white is one of the colours represented in this group, a substantial number are black. They display no sense of empathy for those around them, whether they are elderly, carrying children, pregnant, have mobility problems or just simply slower than them. They move in groups of 5–20 and I think they deliberately intimidate those around them, for kicks. I remain unconvinced that all of this is inside my own head and that if I offerred a cheery “hello”, they would all melt into amenable young people, pull their hoods down, turn their mobile phones off loudspeaker music and invite me down to the Community Centre. But I’m happy to be proved wrong, but I’m not going to hold my breath.
I don’t think Camberwell’s problems will be sorted by opening a Waitrose or closing a fried chicken joint. In my view, Camberwell is as Camberwell is — I take the shops and restaurants as I find them, if I don’t want to use them I don’t, but I’m content for them to stay open as long as other people want and use them.
It seems to me that the real killer is mutual distrust. Followed by mis-management on various levels: local government, police, national government etc etc.
I have lived in Camberwell all of my life and everything that is happening now is nothing new frankly. The area has always been high in crime, it’s just more publicised now.
The reason that it seems to be spiralling out of control at the moment is because of the ridiculous “politically correct” indoctrine that everybody now subscribes to. Yes police stop more young black men than anybody else, that’s because the majority of crime in Lambeth is commited by young black men, FACT. The police are constantly attacked by the “politically correct” collective for stopping these people but they are trying to stop crime before it happens so if 1 in 4 searches results in an arrest whereby a person is carrying a knife then good that’s one possible murder or fatal wounding that has possibly been stopped.
When I was 18 I drove a mini and was literally stopped by police everytime I hit the road. Yes it was very, very frustrating but at the end of the day, I had nothing to hide so it was not a problem, merely a inconvenience.
I also do not subscride to the theory that these kids are getting into trouble because there is nothing for them to do. I grew up on the Gloucester Grove estate as a kid and of course we got bored but we made our own entertainment, this did not involve robbing or beating other people up. The reason for all of these crimes are all based around greed, pure and simple, just as it always has been amongst the criminal fratenity.
I truly wish that I had all of the answers to stop my beloved Camberwell sliding further into despair but I don’t.
Y’know what frustrates me?
Everytime someone with right wing political beliefs has a moan, they blame it on political correctness. And they ALWAYS put the phrase ‘political correctness’ in stupid Daily Mail style quotation marks.
Duke — When you were cynical and sniping from the sidelines in a succinct manner you were mysterious. When you let your true feelings flow you opened yourself up for squidder to take a few well-aimed pops at you. Live and learn, my friend, live and learn.
The police have just shut down Ivory Arch on Walworth Road. They’ve also just shut down the J Bar in Stockwell. Let’s hope Aristocrats is next.
And to all those people who have suggested that shutting down Aristocrats will just move the problem elsewhere — that’s fine with me, as long as the problem is at the end of your street and not at the end of mine. I don’t want any more people being shot dead at the end of my street. One is enough. His name was Jamail Newton.
No more chalk marks at the end of my street, thank you. No more corpses. No more blood in the gutter. No more pieces of brain. That’s it. Finished. Shut down Aristocrats.
Answer that and stay fashionable.
I thought this was an open discussion forum. Duke has voiced an opinion that’ll be shared by many around here, so disagree by all means but don’t knock it.
Totally agree with Lord H. It’ll be interesting to see what happens to Aristocrap. If the Ivory Arch (in the soon-to-be all-new E&C) and the J Bar (in St Ockwell) close and it doesn’t, we’ll know where all those nice people needing a late night battleground are being moved on to…Here.
Agree with Lord Henry — If Aristocrats is closed down and the problem moves elsewhere then so be it (selfish as that may be) — As long as it’s out of Camberwell and I don’t have to see another tragic floral tribute to someone who gets killed for nothing…
Lord H
You can help shift aristocrats if you want to..
This from Dorcas Mills, Southwark’s principal licensing officer:
“I write with regard to your email dated 1November 2006, addressed to Licensing Unit, concerning the recent shooting incident in Camberwell and your more general concerns.
I would firstly like to assure you that your concerns are shared by this Service and by our many partners. I would also assure you that we will be working closely with the police, in particular, our partners and the Southwark nightclub operators on ways that we can address these concerns.
With regards to Aristocrats specifically, I can only inform you that the recent incident continues to be investigated by Trident. At this point in time the police do not have grounds in law to either seek a premises closure order or a review of the premises licence. This Service has no ability in law to initiate either course of action.
I would inform you, however, that the ability to apply for a review of any premises licence exists for any “interested party” (being
a) A person living in the vicinity of the premises;
b) A body representing persons who live in that vicinity;
c) A person involved in a business in that vicinity; or
d) A body representing persons involved in such businesses).
An application for a review of a premises licence must relate to one or more of the four licensing objectives which concern
i) The prevention of crime and disorder;
ii) The prevention of nuisance;
iii) Safety; and
iv) The protection of children from harm.
If you require further information on the premises licence review process please let me know”
And you know what frustrates me squidder, it’s people like you that call anybody that speaks out about non-British peoples activities as right wing.
I went to Archbishop Michael Ramsays school and therefore actually have more black friends than white. I regularly do charity work for a sickle cell charity on account of losing a very dear friend to the disease so how dare have the ordacity to call me that.
I expect that you think the police in this borough are right wing too. I expect they would be the first people that you’d call though should someone assault you for you i-pod, break into your property or knock the froth off you skinny decaf cappucino.
Dear Duke
I agree with you that ther’s nothinjg wrong with the police stopping youths and even searching them. Since mt son was stabbed in the chest and groin by a knife carrying youth and nearly killed over nothing of course I think it’s important. (And don’t make the assumption that the police made that he deserved it and must be into something to get stabbed because he isn’t)
But the police have to follow their own procedures and they don’t. They don’t give reasons often. They don’t do the paperwork. They put people in handcuffs for nothing. And they abuse and provoke the youngsters they stop. That musn’t happen. Which is why I spend many hours filling in police complaint forms. Because that is plain wrong and makes all black youngsters hate the police. Then they don’t talk to them. And so it goes on. It is more than an incovenience to be abused constantly and put in handcuffs. My son’t legitimate moped was left on the side of the Old Kent rd. He bought it with his grandfather’s legacy. He used it to get to work and college. They arrested him for failing to blow into a brethalyser bag properly after he stopped to ask them directions and they decided he had been drinking, took him to the station where the test was negative and then told him he would be “pissed now as your bike will be stolen of taken by the red route patrol” It was. He has lost his prize possession. I don’t think you would have liked it if they did that to your minicab!
Yes we have to stop crime.. But by proper fair policing. That is just not happening in our experience nowadays.
There is a quote by Jean Renoir that is often referenced, and it goes — “Everybody has their reasons.”
But nobody ever mentions the second half of the quote — “That’s why the world is such a terrible place.”
ewookie — I’m a bit dense. Who do I write to or e-mail then? Dorcas Mills? Or is there a separate dept?
Duke — Great comeback to squidder. Reminds me of the punch Eubank threw as it looked like he was going down against Michael Watson!
Realme: Prejudice. Hmm.
I am one of the white people in Camberwell who sometimes gets nervous and paranoid about being attacked when in proximity to groups of black men wearing hoodies. That is because I was attacked, pistol-whipped and robbed by a group of black men wearing hoodies on Elmington Road last year.
The first call I received from the police, just after I had got back from hospital, was to ask me if I was making the whole thing up to claim the insurance.
Prejudice from anyone, be it the police or people like me, is rarely baseless.
Postscript: The brother of a very good (black) friend of mine was shot and killed in Hackney this year. My friend says the police have been impeccable in their attitude — supportive and open-minded.
Dear Duke of Bickleigh
you spelt ‘audacity’ wrong.
just saying.
Duke, you said “..the reason that (crime) seems to be spiralling out of control at the moment is because of the ridiculous “politically correct” indoctrine that everybody now subscribes to.” You also say you’re speaking out against “non-British peoples” implying that black people are “non-British” – and that crime in Britain is not the responsibility of British people. These view point as you stated them are right wing, even if ‘some of your best friends are black’, so please don’t act offended.
Political correctness is a linguistic policy that states that a language’s grammatical categories shape its speakers’ ideas and actions. ‘The objective was and remains to bring peoples’ unconscious biases into awareness, allowing them to make more informed choices about their language and making them aware of things different people might find offensive.’ I don’t understand how a linguistic policy can be responsible for crime in Camberwell, cappuccino or no cappuccino.
By the way, coming from an ethnic minority is not the same as choosing to drive a mini.
Hmm.….…..just wondering what the opposite of “politically correct” is?
“Socially Incompetent”
As a general rule of thumb everybody, don’t put anything in inverted commas. It’s crass.
The people we’re talking about are feral youths who appear to hate everyone around them and have no understanding, regard or empathy for anyone outside their immediate circle.
I was like this for a while when I was very young. My parents were convinced I was a thief and burglar. I wasn’t generally, I just behaved like one. Some hormone surge that made me irrationally want to join the army so I could shoot rapid fire guns or run away and be a Foreign Legionnaire. I seethed. I am lucky. It passed. Yet enough of the feel of it was with me when I was fifteen that I went to Sandhurst for an induction week. Basically I still wanted to kill people. My intellect and empathy had caught up with my sensibilities to some extent by then and what I saw ultimately made me a pacifist because I discovered I had a paradoxical urge to punch the posh officers for being who they were. I reckoned I should just get my act together, forget romantic violence and do something creative instead.
I recount this just because when I feel threatened by particularly, black youths, who scowl and leer out of their hoods at me (and I’ve been mugged by three of them, had a phone snatched out of my hand by one darting out of a gang, have chased two different such young men out of my home as well as having been burgled anonymously, oh and there was an armed robbery at the pub a long time ago, you know daily London stuff) I find it really irksome because I kind of empathise with them. I know certainly that if given the chance we would know each other differently from just being anonymous passers by on the street and find things to admire and understand about each other. The knowledge of this is very frustrating.
I’m not being patronising. It’s possible / highly likely their experience is somewhat different to mine but their behaviour strikes me essentially as being the result of phenomenal boredom, deep feelings of alienation from any form of mainstream society, enormous frustration and outrage with their absolutely unjust reality and facing a future that seems blank, formless, without possibility of any kind of long term structural satisfaction. Perhaps all of this mixed and conflicting with inchoate desires for a secure life somewhere in the future, like having a home of their own, some proper status, a car maybe and certainly a woman and perhaps even a family but seeing no possible way of getting there conventionally other than by leading a life of utter drudgery and ennui, maybe working checkout at Tesco or counter at MacDonalds or filling shelves in a warehouse. Alternative approaches to finding life satisfaction and funds – like music or sport, and all the clichés, involve huge hard work and a lot of talent and are a stony path anyway and finally, just doing some soft or hard drugs to fill time and bashing the shit out of someone passing by to get their bag, camera, phone or whatever just seems, well, actually is, just so much easier. At least for a while. Put lots of these guys together (like at school) without good role models all around them, add knives and guns and gangs and dissing each other out then you’ve got low level civil war rumbling along.
Further towards the top of this extraordinary dialogue I sort of made an open invitation for us – people contributing here — to meet up to discuss these issues and to better give us a chance to know each other as people instead of written opinion. I’m not sure I’ve caught every posting but my impression is that my suggestion fell on deaf ears.
Any takers?
Peace and Light
Let’s use this reality to help make ours better.
Incidentally my belief is that all clubs and bars that allow violence / anti social behaviour to happen on the premises should be shut down. Irrespective of the ‘it only moves away somewhere else’ thesis. If such behaviour is made completely unacceptable EVERYWHERE the behaviour might begin to peter out.
Does anyone know the track ‘Ali Baba’ by John Holt? I reckon it’s one of the best songs of all time.
Thanks LH
“It’s crass”
Innit.
Of course it would be worthwhile meeting up Mark. Talking’s much easier than typing, certainly in my case.
It would be good to try and find the chap who left the written tribute to Jamail. On reading what he said it became clear that he had the whole thing sussed, from both sides.
There is a feature on teh tragic shooting in todays Observer — see http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0„1945895,00.html
An interesting and largely sympathetic summary of the story
Thanks for posting the link Mumu
Hi,
I’m making a short film about the death of Jamail Newton for Channel Five, and I am urgently seeking witnesses to potentially contribute.
Like Lisa at the London Paper I’d particularly like to speak to Ewookie — and I do apologise for this approach, I’m pressed for time and wanted to get in touch as quickly as possible.
The film is part of Five Films, a 3 minute short film strand which will be broadcast in December, and is being made through DFG Films (www.dfgfilms.com).
You can reach me via my email annemullee@yahoo.co.uk, and I can give you a call when it’s convenient!
Many thanks and I look forward to hearing from you,
Anne
jamail_newton_film@yahoo.co.uk
Why are you making this film Anne? Do you have permission form the family could I ask?
Has that mong-hole Aristocrats been shut yet ?
I want to start promoting a night at the Redstar but would rather a twat-club like Aristocrats was not right opposite.