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Camberwell and my life in it
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Welcome to the Camberwell Online blog, a place for free and spirited exchange on anything with even a tangential connection to the South-East London district.
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February 7th, 2007
Dagmar Says (#15450):
February 7th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
I put on a long-winded, windbaggy, why-oh-why, Daily Maily post last night about stabbings & shootings and it wasn’t there today, thank God. Is that why, Peter? Essential maintenance on the track? Maybe in my maundering, in the miasma of my Mail wailing and windbagging, I pressed the wrong knob.
I have been bending my not inconsiderably serpentine mind to anything, anything at all, that will distract us from the grim killings that make us all sick, all of us, as we learned last time. So here we go, my best shot.
The zebra-striped Conway’s workmen’s tea hut by the Dark Horse is an excellent contribution to Camberwell street art. Yes, eat your heart out, Bellenden lamp posts!
Conways have been big in south-east London since 1961. Their usual Irish green livery for their trucks and huts bears a quasi coat-of-arms logo with a shamrock and English rose against a field of green. Most of the Irish subbie vehicle fleets are painted Irish green, so the zebra hut is a radical “BA tailfin” venture. Well done the Conway boys! The Irish Tiger roars on! Up the zebras!
Better still, all manner of strange, primitive signs - arrows, suns poised between heaven and hell horizon lines - have been spraypainted on the paving slabs all the way down Camberwell Grove, leading to the zebra hut, culminating in two words, sprayed on the bottom of the hill near the Dark Horse, “BT chamber!”
What a sight that chamber must be, full of underground BT dwarves, smoking, doing no work, moaning, but still highly intuitive to the ways of wiring and telephony, and ten times more effectual than the dithering ntl elves, who squat waiting to hear from head office that they’ve been sold for the treacherous tuppence of shareholder value.
The photographers amongst us could chronicle this prehistoric art narrative, the arrows and suns and the hut, as a commentary on that urban jungle Barthes biz, the old/new, bumble/bungle, givin’ it the old urban herbal verbal.
Mark Says (#15465):
February 7th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=378857490&context=pool-32334552@N00&size=l
Eleanor Says (#15467):
February 7th, 2007 at 10:45 pm
Last night, just before 10pm, I noticed a man with a clipboard walking round the open (broken) portaloo on Camberwell Green and counting items unknown around the base of the structure. Then writing down the number of things. What he was counting I couldn’t tell. But I thought (given the sometime scatalogical preoccupations of this blog) I should pass on the observation. Maybe it will lead to a report being written calling for repair procedure to be implemented. Maybe - and maybe this is better news - he was the first of Dagmar’s psychedelic semioticians.
FoxyAl Says (#15487):
February 8th, 2007 at 9:19 am
Is there a rodent problem in the area? I am thinking of buying in Camberwell but have a few reservations. Can you put my mind at rest?
Also, what are the pubs like in the area? I went to one called the Sun & Doves last night and was a bit disappointed. No real ale on and they had possible the worst quiz night I have ever been to on as well. Other than it seemed OK. I would appreciate some guidance…
Mumu Says (#15489):
February 8th, 2007 at 9:39 am
I agree about the pub quiz last night - I was there too. The sound system wasnt up to much and it wasnt as slick as normal, also the lack of availability of real ale was disappointing. Hopefully these were just a one offs. The Sun and Doves is a great pub especially in summer when its a delight to sit out the back.
Other pubs I would recommend in the area are the Black Horse, the Castle, the George Canning and Funky Munky if you want trendy wine bar type pubs with food, the Hermits Cave, Joiners Arms, Prince of Wales, Jack Beards if you want old mans pubs.
There are great restaurants such as Safa, New Devonian for Indian, Tadim for Turkish, the Vineyard for Greek food, Pomodores e Mozarella for Italian, also Thai, Chinese, Vietnamese + other food available.
And great independent shops - Crusons fruit+veg, Sophocles bakery, Chinese supermarket, 99p shop, independent electrical shop and various others. The chains arent so good - big Somerfield is poor, smaller Somerfield better but limited range, Woolworths always chaotic
I dont think there is any greater mouse/ rat problem in Camberwell than anywhere else in london.
I would thoroughly recommend buying here. I did so last summer and have never regretted it
FoxyAl Says (#15490):
February 8th, 2007 at 9:53 am
Good stuff. I have also read that Camberwell has a problem with “vunerable adults”. I seem to remember seeing a lot of them when visiting friends there. Is this a significant issue?
Alan Dale Says (#15491):
February 8th, 2007 at 10:02 am
It really is. I saw one such ‘vulnerable’ spring a leak at 6pm at a busy bus stop two days ago.
Nobody batted an eyelid.
I’ve seen calls on here to reduce the number of offlicenses but I’d prefer a zero tolerance approach to street drinking enforced.
Don’t rule us out on the grounds of tramps though. It is precisely because of the ugly face of Camberwell around the Green and such like that you can get such high quality central London homes at reasonable prices.
If you want to buy somewhere nice look near Denmark Hill Station. If you want to buy somewhere cheap with huge potential for capital gain look near Burgess Park.
Where are you thinking of buying?
FoxyAl Says (#15493):
February 8th, 2007 at 10:14 am
I am looking around the Camberwell Grove, Grove Park area. It seems a bit quieter round there and reasonably priced.
Our badly behaved friends are certainly an issue for me. I have looked at buying a place near Elephant as I think there is a killing to be made there but I recently saw a man urinating on his own bare feet whilst vomitting and it put me off the whole idea. I also saw two drunks getting fresh under the roundabout, stopping only to swig special brew and shout at passers by. I am not sure I could handle it on a daily basis.
Are these people so prominent and frisky in Camberwell?
Alan Dale Says (#15494):
February 8th, 2007 at 10:21 am
You bet!
Just wait for a sunny day and get down to the green.
I always find it ironic as I look on from the bus on my way to work and their already getting their booze on in the early morning sun.
Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a f**king big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin openers.
I chose not to choose life. I chose something else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you’ve got white lightning and a park bench?
Mumu Says (#15495):
February 8th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Yes there are a number of ‘vulnerable’ people with at times ‘challenging behaviour’ in the area. I think it is partly to do with the fact that there are various homelessness, alcohol counselling and psychiatric services in the area. Its debatable whether the people are in the area because the services are there or whether the people were there and the services set up to deal with their problems. Its partly to do with Westminster City Council’s policies aimed at clearing Westminster’s streets of homeless and other people which has the result of shifting such people to neigbouring inner London areas.
Having said that Ive never had any problem with such people
Mumu Says (#15496):
February 8th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Another area to look at if you want to get away from such people is the bit of Camberwell where I live around Myatts Fields park - Knatchbull Road, Calais Road, Cormont Street, Flodden Road and surrounding have similar housing to Camberwell Grove and are a 10-15 minute walk from Oval tube as well as being 5 minutes into central Camberwell
ewookie Says (#15497):
February 8th, 2007 at 11:06 am
i’ve not often had cause to regret moving to camberwell. my rather more sensitive better half had reservations, but has not worried too much either. however the number of styreet drinkers here is worse than other places i have lived in s london, although if they don’t harass me then what oproblem do i have with them? none.
on a more creative note, and completely off message, does anyone know an art supply shop nearby? perhaps the arts college? it doesn’t need a huge stock, just some acrylics. my flat needs brightening up so i’m finally going to paint the canvases propped against my kitchen wall.
perhaps a nice irish zebra print..
Lulu Says (#15498):
February 8th, 2007 at 11:07 am
I made an interesting observation this morning at the tennis courts in Brunswick Park. A man who we have nicknamed Ike was using a red plastic chair minus the legs to shovel several inches of snow off the court, while he made he daughter (aged about
run around the edges of the court in the snow to warm up. The girl is an excellent tennis player (and would probably beat many of those who consider themselves a good social player) and I have seen on almost a daily basis her father berate her for not playing perfectly – although when she hits a winner back to him he never ever gives her any praise. He is absolutely insane and I worry about her. She might turn into a Wimbledon champion but at what price!?
Has anyone else seen this nutter?
Lulu Says (#15499):
February 8th, 2007 at 11:30 am
don’t know what happened there with the smiley man. i meant to say aged about eight years…
Peter Says (#15500):
February 8th, 2007 at 11:32 am
The reason there are so many drinkers here is because they are near the place where they can - or could - get help. There was a ‘wet centre’ set up so that they could drink in a safe environment with counsellors on hand, but it was closed down to lack of funding. Same story with an emergency clinic for people with mental health problems.
Rather than demonise them, perhaps a bit of understanding of their plight wouldn’t go amiss. I know their drunkenness and occasional fighting isn’t a pretty sight and can cause people to feel anxious, but when their lines of support are being cut I think we can also cut them a bit of slack.
mrs standingby Says (#15501):
February 8th, 2007 at 11:35 am
I’ve not seen that nutter but yesterday I sat behind a mother and her small child (maybe 6 ish) on the way to work. They weren’t talking and it wasn’t until the mother’s mobile rang and she pulled her i-pod earphone out of her ear that I realised why. She replaced it as soon as the call was over.
I’m not a parent myself and I’m sure small children’s chatter can be irritating but that still seemed a bit weird and rather sad to me.
In terms of areas - if you go a bit further down Coldharbour Lane towards Loughborough Junction and up Flaxman Road, Eastlake Road etc you can find some beautiful albeit shabby properties that are twice the size of what you can get in the Grove Area. Our flat needs a bit of work but we’ve got a massive garden, it’s Victorian, has shutters (major selling point for me), three bedrooms etc. We love it.
Also, it’s about equidistant between Brixton and Camberwell, so you can choose which lot of tramps to walk past.
tallulah Says (#15503):
February 8th, 2007 at 11:55 am
I moved here a year ago and use this blog to find out what is going on. I am in the Lambeth bit of Camberwell just off Coldharbour Lane and this is a great place to live I was in Tottenham before where there is nothing!! Here you can walk to lot’s of nice pubs and resturants in Camberwell and Brixton. The street drinkers are here but i have never had a problem. My cat caught a mouse recently and left me to kill it as she had decided that long term torture was a better solution. You get mice every where in this city. Loving the Zebra hut may be we can take this further with all road works etc done in chintzy florals, it would look better than the mess on the Walworth Road at the moment.
Peter Says (#15504):
February 8th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Hi tallulah. I think the council tried something similar with their ‘art on the carts’ scheme, which saw all the bin lorries painted vivid colour schemes. It wasn’t a great success.
ben patio Says (#15505):
February 8th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
When I first moved to Camberwell (5 years ago now) the girl and her father were there in Brunswick Park, playing tennis, in all weathers. She was very good, and my wife and I would stand and watch her for a while. We did wonder whether she was being pushed into it or not, but she looked happy enough. And she’s still there playing five years later, but she doesn’t ever look happy any more…
Alan Dale Says (#15506):
February 8th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
I reckon you should mind your own business.
This is exactly the sort of curtain twitching disapproving gossip I grew up with in provincial England and thought I could escape in London.
So they play a lot of tennis -it’s not exactly child abuse.
How you can be so disapproving of sports enthusiasts and tolerant of urinating vagrant alcoholics is beyond me.
FoxyAl Says (#15507):
February 8th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Camberwell is certainly a lot better than other places but it could improve and one immediate way would be to deal with the antisocial people there. It has been done in other cities, Giuliani worked wonders in New York, and I see no reason reason why they couldn’t move these people on.
Ultimately, everybody would see the benefits in house prices and I don’t think there would be too many complaints then.
squidder Says (#15509):
February 8th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
well said Peter (post 15). i don’t see that street-drinkers that are a threat to person or property. they might not be a pretty sight, but they just keep themselves to themselves.
FoxyAL, camberwell grove and grove park are both nice streets. i lived near loughborough junction, myatts fields etc for about 18 months. nastiest, roughest neighbourhood i’ve ever lived in (and that’s saying something!). a truly horrible part of london. just avoid it.
Have you had a look at property in Herne Hill? that’s a really nice place to live, not like being in london at all. but close enough to get to camberwell / brixton / the city centre etc easily.
Lulu Says (#15510):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
I would call it child abuse, Alan. It’s not healthy to make a child play tennis for hours on end – why isn’t she at school? (OK, maybe she’s home schooled) but I have seen him threaten her with verbal tirades quite often and once i saw him chase after her with the tennis racket. He didn’t hit her but he wanted to. And I am not a curtain twitcher – I just happen to walk past Brunswick Park on my way to work every morning. I just feel sorry for her as she does look miserable and and broken.
Alan Dale Says (#15511):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
So why don’t you say something to him rather than gossip about them on here. Ring social services if you really thing he ‘wanted to’ beat her with her racket.
Well said Peter?!
If someone staggers around on a busy family high street with their tackle out shouting and begging spare change then it doesn’t take a moan from someone like Foxy to ‘demonise’ them.
It’s very right on to say I mind my own business and they don’t bother me so live and let live but that is ignoring the problem and not helping anyone.
ben patio Says (#15512):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
You have all the answers, don’t you, Alan?
squidder Says (#15513):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
“family high street”? you’re fucking tripping.
my point is that the street drinkers don’t hassle anyone. there’s more than enough people who’ll rob you or mug you or whatever in camberwell.
peter was showing some compassion for damaged people who are living in a bad situation, and i’m all for that. alcoholics don’t need any more grief or stigma than they already get on a daily basis.
personally i could care less about the delicate yuppie sensibilities of people who might not move to an area because there’s street drinkers within spitting distance.
FoxyAl Says (#15514):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
They keep themselves to themselves??? No they don’t! Screaming drunken obscenities, leaving litter everywhere and urinating on every street corner is not keeping yourself to yourself.
I ,however, do manage to keep myself to myself everytime I feel like taking direct action against these people. I fail to undertstand why people will continue to tolerate their behaviour and at the same time make people who stand up to them feel like they are in the wrong for “demonising” them. It is the drunk that is bully, not the other way round.
Mumu Says (#15515):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Thus speeaks the voice of the Daily Mail
ben patio Says (#15516):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Steady on Foxy old chap, it might happen to you one day, you know. Or do you have immunity to alcoholism?
Alan Dale Says (#15517):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
The high street is full of families.
Granted they are mainly poor families but they shouldn’t have to tolerate the filth.
Do you really think wanting to be able to take my duaghter to Woolies without being flashed by a drunk or begged at by a tramp can be dismissed as yuppy sensibilities?
squidder Says (#15519):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
when you say “direct action”, do you mean physically stopping them?
Like I say, the street drinkers aren’t a pretty sight, but I don’t think they’re the worst of your worries in terms of the sketchy people you can meet in Camberwell. Basically if you move to camberwell, you will have to see street drinkers, and probably a load more even less savoury stuff. If you don’t want to deal with that on a daily basis, then Herne Hill (where i live) is really pleasant.
squidder Says (#15518):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
when you say “direct action”, do you mean physically stopping them?
Like I say, the street drinkers aren’t a pretty sight, but I don’t think they’re the worst of your worries in terms of the sketchy people you can meet in Camberwell. Basically if you move to camberwell, you will have to see street drinkers, and probably a load more even less savoury stuff. If you don’t want to deal with that on a daily basis, then Herne Hill (where i live) is really pleasant.
squidder Says (#15520):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
FoxyAl, when you say “direct action”, do you mean physically stopping them?
Like I say, the street drinkers aren’t a pretty sight, but I don’t think they’re the worst of your worries in terms of the sketchy people you can meet in Camberwell. Basically if you move to camberwell, you will have to see street drinkers, and probably a load more even less savoury stuff. If you don’t want to deal with that on a daily basis, then Herne Hill (where i live) is really pleasant.
squidder Says (#15521):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
FoxyAl,when you say “direct action”, do you mean physically stopping them?
Like I say, the street drinkers aren’t a pretty sight, but I don’t think they’re the worst of your worries in terms of the sketchy people you can meet in Camberwell. Basically if you move to camberwell, you will have to see street drinkers, and probably a load more even less savoury stuff. If you don’t want to deal with that on a daily basis, then move somewhere else.
FoxyAl Says (#15522):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Squidder - Is your point that as long as tramps are not mugging someone, they should be left in peace?
Ben Patio - No, I am not saying that I am immune from alcoholism. Rather that if I ever do fall from grace I hope that others would not simply descrice me as a “character” and tolerate my disgusting behaviour.
I am sure that these people have awful, tragic stories to tell but that does not mean they should be able to shit in my back garden.
Vivienne Says (#15523):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
And thus FoxyAl, you see what’s wrong with Camberwell. Don’t move here. The people who cause all the problems are treated with white gloves while those who work hard and pay all the taxes are inherently evil and must be stopped. The “right on’s” rule. If someone could move them on, then maybe we’d get somewhere.
Poor little girl though. She may grow up to be Venus Williams when those who know best for her think she’d be better off street drinking.
ben patio Says (#15524):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Be careful what you say, most of the people on this blog have good shit stories to tell…
squidder Says (#15525):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
my point is that there’s sketchier people in camberwell than the drunks. if you move to camberwell, you have to be prepared to see that stuff, and probably worse on a daily basis. i’ve never been flashed at by a drunk, sometimes they ask me for change, i say no, they wander off. simple as that.
and yeah, i’d say that being an alcoholic isn’t as bad as mugging someone.
it’s pretty staggering that you’ve not even moved here yet, and you’re already kicking off about who can and cannot shit in your back garden.
squidder Says (#15526):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
“paging bukowski333, bukowski333 to foxyAl’s back garden.”
Dagmar Says (#15527):
February 8th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
I cycled the fabulous old Surrey Canal path from Burgess Park to Peckham a couple of days ago which comes out just by the fantastic Library. There were a bunch of tramps by the path, all looking north African. One was taking his cock out and another said to him in French, “Ca suffit!” That’s enough! Marvellous, I thought, I am in the middle of a Beckett play.
As I crossed the road to get to Netto, a small black boy tripped over,landed on his bum and started howling. His mum tried to comfort him. But then this old white bloke, tall, with kind of pub-stained, tobacco-stained silver hair and black-framed glasses, bellowed at the lad, “Get up! Get up! You’re a Peckham boy, which is the ‘ardest geezer to be!” This was maybe a little over-robust, but the chap put his arm round the mum, with the booze deeply engrained in his bones, and comforted her, too.
sg Says (#15528):
February 8th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
hey FoxyAl, Camberwell’s just a typical inner city area. Lots of potential (viz the drunks) but also lots of problems (viz the tennis player): probably just like Tottenham, Mile End and all those sorts of places.
The good thing about Camberwell is that its nice and close to central London and eventually, once the council has sorted out Peckham, the Elephant and the Old Kent Road, they might even focus on it.
In the meantime, its still a great place to live and has a nice edgy, urban feeling. The streets all look a bit different, too, which is nice. Preferable to bland East Dulwich streets, if you know what I mean.
If you want to be a yuppie here, there are loads of yuppy places you can go to - and if you want to be a leftie, there are places for those types too.
I moved here as one and became the other - and I didn’t play tennis or drink in the street.
Mumu Says (#15529):
February 8th, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Of course most of us are fed up with the anti social behaviour carried out by street drinkers/ homeless people/ other assorted mad people you sometimes find on the streets of Camberwell but the solution to the problem is not to loudly condemn them, their presence on the streets is a symptom of a wider problem. We should be pushing for action from the statutory authorities to deal with the problems at source by providing support and care to enable them to return to somewhere near normal as I’m sure most of them in their lucid moments would prefer not to be in their current situation.
Peter Says (#15530):
February 8th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
The longer an argument goes on, the more absurd it gets. It sounds to me as if you can’t walk down the high street without a puking drunk waving his cock at you, and yet the reality I see is somewhat different.
Undeniably, Camberwell has an abundance of street drinkers. The solution is obviously not to turn a blind eye, but neither is it to dismiss them as tramps and lock them up or move them on. These people need help, and the help keeps getting taken away from them.
The problem with Camberwell is not that the “right ons” rule, it’s apathy. When the wet centre was on the verge of being closed down, who did anything? No-one.
To say that there are the ‘right ons’ and the ‘hard-working tax payers’ is a false dichotomy; I work hard and pay my taxes, and yet I don’t support the demonisation of the homeless or street drinkers.
I would suggest that if the less savoury aspects of urban life bother you that much and you can’t be bothered to understand it or attempt to do anything about it, you should think about moving to a gated community where unpleasantness can’t arrive at your doorway.
For anyone without the luxury or the inclination to do so, people with mental health problems are a fact of life, and it does us ill to dismiss that.
squidder Says (#15531):
February 8th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
oh snap. all my cleverly worded posts have vanished! Peter, i think i got caught in your spam filter… oh well.
err, what’s left to say? dunno, FoxyAl, i don’t think you’d like living in camberwell. although i would pay good money to see you take “direct action” at a street drinker when all that built up anxiety finally explodes and you go nuts in a shopping mall with a flame thrower.
FoxyAl Says (#15533):
February 8th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
I take the point of the last three posts. Well argued points. However, I don’t think allowing people to gather in parks,alleyways and street corners and drink all day does anyone any favours.
I also don’t believe that some people here have NEVER seen an intimidating or unpleasant tramp and wished they would just go away. If you allow these people to get away with doing nothing, that is exactly what will happen. Moving them on or forcing them to take responsibility for their behaviour may mean they actually begin to do so.
Perhaps Tramps gravitate to Camberwell because they know that the people there are more liberal and will tolerate the behaviour more readily? If this was not the case, they would be forced to move on or behave. Even if only a few decided to do the latter, would that not be better?
squidder Says (#15534):
February 8th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
peter, that spam filter of yours is too good, and has deleted all my witty, intelligent posts… oh well
Peter Says (#15538):
February 8th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
I suspect, FoxyAl, that if I ever came to your house I would find a lot of dust swept under your carpet…
I was going to close comments when I made this post, as it was just a technical note and was intended to be temporary; the astounding ability of my visitors to make their own topics never ceases to amaze me!
Alan Dale Says (#15539):
February 8th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Welcome Foxy Al. Good to have a fellow Nimby in the area.
I can feel the upward pressure on houseprices rising through my feet.
Well hosted debate Peter- you have to take some credit.
Dagmar Says (#15541):
February 8th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
So I wanted to see if Danish-owned Netto sold any Danish things. I found Swiss Rolls Made by Dan Cake.
Dan Cake!
Dan Cake of Denmark, founded 1931, fiercely independent, like Maersk with the unusual, seven-pointed star on their containers which rumble through Camberwell.
Netto’s 14% abv South African red wine, “Robert’s Rock”, is great for £2.95, with a screwcap so you can “uncork” another bottle without anyone hearing you in the next room or street.
It even makes you edgy the next day, so much so that you can hear the creak of the bricks around you growing in value!
Lulu Says (#15544):
February 8th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
It’s a sad day when wonderful people like Tom from the ForgottenCamberwell blog have given up on change for Camberwell. He has campaigned very hard, particularly for regeneration around the Southampton Way area. See his sign-off
http://www.forgotten-camberwell.blogspot.com/
Mumu Says (#15545):
February 8th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Have your hosts upgraded their servers successfully?
The Duke of Denmark Hill Says (#15546):
February 8th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Er, according to Mr Patio’s post (no. 19), the tennis playing girl would have been three years old when you first moved here. Can a three year old play tennis? I was still wetting the bed at that point. (And how!)
Dagmar Says (#15548):
February 8th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
Yes, Lulu, TommyD says on SE5Forum that he feels like leaving SE5. People like him who put in a lot to the area must feel very down about the killings, like people who’ve been burgled or violated in some way themselves. A lot of the area round Burgess park is poor Camberwell with humble housing but you often see or meet really good people (like the man who gave me his trousers and turned me onto Heidegger). The area is packed with children with committed parents, without being too pious about it.
It’s probably true that the human rights of the muggers and killers there are given priority over any rights of the people they live amongst. I wonder if the Richardsons would have run things a little better. They would not have tolerated what goes on now. If there are vermin in your place, you get a cat.
On the other, less angry hand, Camilla said about the gentle, now dead, Jamail Newton you could see the pain on his face and you can see the same kind of thing on the faces of the unloved, parentless youth round here. Such people are a pain, who kill in our area and all over the country. It’s ironic they don’t know that gang youths are not growing out of what psychologists used to call a homosexual, gang-love phase - yeah, man, in the gangs they’re looking for love, but they don’t know that.
NickW Says (#15550):
February 8th, 2007 at 7:20 pm
Its difficult – I believe the roughness (shootings etc) come from people minding their own business too much and not knowing who lives in their neighbourhood and what they are up to. – I mean there is social breakdown in inner London at the moment… but at the same time I agree with Alan that we shouldn’t gossip behind peoples backs unless we are going to act on it.. it’s a difficult balance – heartbreaking though.
I also thought Matt’s comment on the forum “… we noticed that a lot of housing in SE5 is tenanted quite cheaply for example up Dagmar, Bushy Hill and Wilson Roads (among the expensive privately owned places) and it is probably only a matter of time until house prices reach a point where landlords realise that they might get much more if they sold up rather than rented. If this happens, the whole social demographic of the area will change. Everyone has their own take on whether that is a good thing or not!…”
Tommy keep your head up you’re an inspiration – I feel that for every TWO good things that happen here ONE bad thing happens as well.. this means the area is slowly getting better.. stick in there… at least until we get the results of the old Tram consultation.
Stacy Says (#15555):
February 8th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
ewookie: not sure I would bother with college shop. Most of the time the shelves are bare and when they do have stock it is a pretty poor selection (as a student there, I speak on good authority). I would try to stationers on the right-hand side of Camberwell New Road as you go towards Oval (I don’t remember the name, sorry). The staff are very nice and helpful too.
copeywolf Says (#15556):
February 8th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Just got in. This blog’s on fire!
squidder Says (#15558):
February 8th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
thanks for fishing me out of the spam filter Peter. my fault for being impatient. apols for the double (and more!) posts from me that have now appeared. you can almost hear the panic in my voice as i realise that i could no longer post!
anyway Copeywolf, yeah it was am action packed day alright. Hobophobes crawling out of the woodwork all over the place.
Dagmar Says (#15580):
February 9th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Let’s all drive into Lafayette an’ git drunk.
ewookie Says (#15586):
February 9th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
@Stacy - thanks for the advice. i’ll give the stationers a go. think i’ll be getting all banksy this weekend.
Dagmar, where you talking about? the only Lafayette I know is Les Galeries Laf, where I’m sure I once saw Lord Henry trying on a rather gaudy silk cravat with the help of a parisian sapphic beauty.
Mark Says (#15587):
February 9th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
I’m on holiday. From here Camberwell seems pretty fine.
Sorry about S&D beer: very busy early week; bar chaps not quite expecting so much beer to be sold early Feb. Deliveries made Thursday am and, being tied, getting emergency beer supplies in is NOT an option.
Quiz? will send post to quiz masters for their edification.
squidder Says (#15588):
February 9th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
hi ewookie,
if you’re fancying doing some stencilling, there’s some really good tutorials on stencilrevolution.
check out the link below:
http://www.stencilrevolution.com/tutorials/
Hannah M Says (#15591):
February 9th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
I’m feeling fairly positive about Camberwell too at the moment.
Maybe cos i just had a very nice realxing Camberwell weekend last weekend.
Saturday night - i spent a few hours sitting at the new booths in the S+D drinking beer and catching up with friends and then had a wonderful and very reasonable meal at Lamoon - non Camberwell diners were very impressed.
Wasted Sunday afternoon sampling various beers in the hermits cave whilst my other half watched the football and got in to discussions with local “characters” about Chelsea FC then had a very acceptable meal at Mozzerella e Pomodoro.
PeteW Says (#15600):
February 9th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
After anonymously flicking through this excellent blog for a while, the time has come to dive in. And I’m afraid it’s partly prompted by annoyance.
Some of the comments about alcoholics made me wonder if I’d strayed onto the Daily Mail website. For the record, if any would be SE5ers are out there, I’ve been here two years and never had any trouble with them. Admittedly, I don’t hang out much on the Green, but pretty much any inner London area with reasonably cheap housing has similar problems. If you really don’t like it, go and live in a shoebox in SE22. And have some sympathy — some of the comments sound very smug indeed.
As for Lulu’s comment about the Brunswick Park tennis prodigy, I’m afraid she’s absolutely right. The father is unstinting in his criticism and I’ve never seen her praise her once. She’s cearly technically gifted but completely disillusioned; as soon as she’s old enough to have a say, she’ll never pick up a racket again, I’d guess. The dad’s a tyrant.
And no, this isn’t curtain twitching. That’s an absurd comment. So why don’t I get involved? I’ve considered it many times but the problem is that I can’t really see how I’d make things any better. If I shout at the dad and tell him to treat his daughter differently he’d a/ ignore me and b/ most likely take it out on her later. As for social services, his behaviour doesn’t actually constitute abuse, merely very misguided parenting. And I severely doubt she’d be happier in a children’s home. He clearly has notions of producing a Williams-esque tennis prodigy but is severely misguided.
There you go. I’ve probably managed to annoy half the posters here at first attempt. I’m not always so opinionated.
eusebiovic Says (#15603):
February 9th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
I think that’s it’s unfair to demonise the street alcoholic street drinkers and agree with the comment above that we don’t want this Blog turning into an online version of “The Daily Nail” - The reason there are so many street drinkers is simple - This area has always had an above average level of alcoholism (Closure of Surrey Docks,Decline of Manual Labour Industry,Piss-Poor Post-War Housing Re-Development,Unemployment)and because of this, many of the longstanding drug/alcohol projects that have the best reputation are based in se1/se5/se11/se17 and encouraged by that many other projects that have been driven out of boroughs like Westminister because of high rents have relocated here. Also the total lack of responsibility by Lambeth and Southwark Council who approve a continuous stream of 24hour off licence alcohol licences at will to anyone who requests one even though there are clearly more than there is demand for doesn’t help matters either…
squidder Says (#15615):
February 10th, 2007 at 12:25 am
HUMAN BEINGS?! WITH COMPASSION??! Thank the stars you’ve finally arrived.
that’s right Daily Mail readers, the “undesirables” you see on the streets are the consequence, not the root, of the problem.
alan? foxyAl? you’ve… gone… so… quiet.
Mel R Says (#15628):
February 10th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Methinks there’s something fishy about FoxyAl. I don’t think he’s quite what he makes out to be. A wind-up merchant perchance?
For the record I have lived in SE5 for just 5 months and there is a higher, or more visible amount of street drinking here than in other places I’ve lived (around Southwark and Hackney). I don’t know about cause and effect or the services available (although I’d be sorry to hear they’re being cut when there’s obviously such a need). But from a purely selfish perspective, I don’t find the people concerned threatening in any way and their presence doesn’t affect me pottering about my little Camberwell business. True, it is sometimes saddening and in an ideal world I wouldn’t have to be confronted by such sad sights. But it’s not an ideal world. If I wanted to avoid being confronted with that, though, I could move elsewhere. Property prices or rents don’t keep you in a place if you really don’t like it. Property prices and rent will force you to prioritise between the area and type and size of home. You makes your choices and you gets on with it, innit?
Mark Says (#15629):
February 10th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Daily Wail: drinkers stinkers and thinkers
The drinkers, and other substance abusers, are in Camberwell for the reasons accurately outlined by eusebiovic above. I grew up in a place that had people a bit like this around - mental health institutions were north south and west of the town I grew up in - and unusual people were part of my upbringing. This is partly why I’ve always felt ‘at home’ in Camberwell. I’ve had great conversations with many of them when they’ve not been completely bonced, I’ve been, literally, moved to tears and felt immensely priviledged to have heard some of their storys. Some of their experiences and advice have helped shape my view on society. SO. I reckon it’s relatively simple.
THIS whole issue is not about what street drinkers drink or take to occupy their otherwise time rich lives. It’s about BEHAVIOUR.
Like when they:
Litter the Green and other parts of the neighbourhood
Occupy benches on the Green making it unattractrive and unuseable to people who don’t have a White Lightning agenda
Make the only public toilet in Camberwell completely unuseable
Occupy bus stops in front of shops, for example outside the little Thai restaurant on Coldharbour Lane and along by Nando’s
Pissing, er, and shitting on the street;
Shout abuse at each other and fill the footpath so other pedestrians can’t get by
Accuse me of collecting information on them to give to MI5 when I take photographs of Camberwell Green.
Occupy emergency services’, and my own, time and resources through falling over and smashing heads on pavements, creating lakes of blood
Aggressively beg my customers, outside and inside the pub for: food; fags; money; drink
And block the loos there too
Oh and a few other pecadilloes like these
MOST of these people do not engage in the above activities. SOME regularly do.
The ones that do make the environment unpleasant for EVERYONE. The total number of people we are discussing here is around THIRTY. Around THIRTY THOUSAND people live around Camberwell and are directly affected by a minority of the thirty. This is a small tail wagging a rather big dog.
The whole of this is exclusively about what is and is not acceptable behaviour. Drunks can be drunks and not be abusive to other people. SIMPLE. If they are abusive to others and destructive of their environment they should be dealt with according to the social mores that are applied to all people. They are not.
These are observations. Of course I don’t have an answer. But an answer is reachable if we get concensus about how to deal with the problem and then get the people we’re talking about to agree as well. This is feasible.
Mushtimushta Says (#15630):
February 10th, 2007 at 11:28 am
There’s alot of bluster in some of the previous postings. Those of you that think that the street-drinkers, substance-abusers and the mentally ill of Camberwell need sorting out should do just that! Typing angry little postings on here is not going to do it - writing to the Council is not going to do it. Get real, please! If you find someone shi**ing in your front garden, get out there with a broom and show them who’s Lord of the Manor. Shoo them off your property - it’ll make you feel so much better!
I’ve never been flashed, vomitted on or yelled at by these people. I have, however been “helped on my way” by that sweet little old lady with the funny neck who stands at the bus stop in Church Street and places a helping hand on passers by and applies a light push. If you see her, watch the reaction of the people she “helps” - it’s the best entertainment to be got in Camberwell.
squidder Says (#15631):
February 10th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
yeah, i’ve seen her around loads. she’s my second favourite camberwell character. second only to the old guy with the shopping bag that’s COVERED in clippings from The Sun, union jacks, patriotic slogans etc.
i really like Mark’s comment(67). a rational commentary about the drunks instead of just calling them “scum” or whatever.
i did wonder if FoxyAl’s shtick was a wind-up. if it is then it’s a good one in an Alan Partridge style.
Dagmar Says (#15634):
February 10th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
FoxyAl has a point about aggressive drunks. We’ve all seen nasty things happen with ‘em. She should be commended for condemning boorish behaviour, surely?
regeneguru Says (#15636):
February 10th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
FoxyAl could be commended for being forthright, although that’s a quality not lacking on this blog.
Squidder may have hit the mark. Perhaps it is a second blog identity for someone; a diminutive, based on someone’s name to give cover for more extreme comments?
Dagmar Says (#15638):
February 10th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Sounds like a greyhound name to me. The street drinkers, the gardens drinkers, in Lucas gardens, are absolute gentlemen, even the ladies, one of whom I overheard saying the other day “I lost me sense of smell for three years.” They are ever so kind and exhort my small daughters not to play with the needles. There is something special about Lucas Gardens which makes the outdoor drinkers so amenable there, like razor blades sharpened under a pyramid.
ben patio Says (#15645):
February 10th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Lucas Gardens always has an air of melancholy which I like to think is a vestige of its former life as the grounds of the loony bin. Even the children’s playground seems more subdued than others in the area.
Mushtimushta Says (#15649):
February 10th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
@Dagmar - being honest, I haven’t seen any aggresive drunks (by which, I mean the street people of the Green) around Camberwell. Perhaps I’m just lucky. I’ve seen aggressive drunks, of course, but they go into work each Monday, in suits!
@squidder - I’m going to keep a look out for the Sun carrier bag man - I’ve not yet encountered him. Where are his haunts?
We’ve been here before, but who remembers the black woman that painted herself white and only wore white clothing? I talk in the past tense because she is no longer a Camberwell resident (or has stopped painting herself, of course).
Mushtimushta Says (#15650):
February 10th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
While I’m in the mood for typing, I thought I’d share with you all a story about alcohol abuse that is harrowing in the extreme. All names and locations are removed to protect the innocent.
I went to a school in S London and in the year below me there was a boy called Z***. Well, you don’t talk to those in years below, do you? 15 years later, I met him in a bar, and he was drunk as a skunk, but recognised me. We got talking and arranged to meet up. This we did, but he arrived drunk and it was not a very pleasant evening. After that, I ignored his messages on my ansaphone and after a couple of months, they stopped. Yesterday, I was walking along B****friars Rd and saw him walking along with an elderly woman. In the distance, I had clocked them and thought that they were an elderly couple, her with her walking stick and him with his crutches. She was in her sixties, but he is only in his forties. Stick thin and pale as the day. Let this be a lesson to us all. I’ve had to shorten this story considerably, but it sent a shudder through me when I saw him.
Mark Says (#15681):
February 11th, 2007 at 10:13 am
Shuddered me too. But for the grace of…
dickdotcom Says (#15682):
February 11th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Had a quick read of this thread last night while waiting for Mrs Dotcom to put the final touches to her outfit … and some of the posts towards the top of this discussion almost spoiled my evening …
Like others my initial reaction was that FoxyAl was a wind-up … But full marks to Mark and Peter as ever for sensible and compassionate posting … I love this area because of its individuality and because of the people who really care about the investment (emotional and financial) they have made in the area. This means that the prevailing trend of the area is largely liberal.
The downside of that is that there are some ‘nutters’ about. Live with it cos it’s not really that much of a problem. And if you can’t, as PeteW said, maybe you’d find SE22 or even SE21 more congenial.
And if I witness anyone taking ‘direct action’ against a street drinker I’ll be tempted to take ‘direct action’ against them.
I almost invoked Godwin’s law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_Law) in this post but I won’t …
Dagmar Says (#15684):
February 11th, 2007 at 10:49 am
I was enjoying the summer sitting outside the Hermits with a friend when a drunk came up and asked us for a fag. My friend obliged. The chap was crazed and glazed with drink but said he was a soldier. “Royal Engineers!” he barked. “Are you a poof?” he asked my friend, who is indeed not just gay but a proper queer. “Yes,” he said. “You shouldn’t of tole me that!” said the soldier, “Now I’ve got to do something about it!” Somehow he lost interest after some very dodgy minutes, but later I heard him absolutely screaming over and over again to the staff in an offie, “I’m going to f-k you up!”
regeneguru Says (#15685):
February 11th, 2007 at 11:34 am
An interesting story, Dagmar.
And admirable creativity from the Council. You see, all these drunks are former campaigners or traders with serial local business failures. Prostrate, no longer home owners so effectively deprived of citizenship, debt-ridden and even without a fixed abode, they performed proskenysis before anyone in a suit identifying themselves as an authority.
The Southwark representative (for it was he) explained: all these years, no-one has listened to your plaint. But I have good news.
Now you can rant to your heart’s content in a drunken stupor, and upon my word the general public will pay you more heed than ever did we. At the same time, you will serve a real social aim for the first time in your lives: keeping house prices affordable by maintaining high crime and anti-social behaviour. Why do you think we allowed all those food and community deserts to crop up in the first place? We have directed the licensing committee never to refuse an application.
If not alcoholic, each ne’er do well already had an unpleasant compulsive habit which they were happy to transfer to that vice.
And so, each mid-afternoon, the trudge back through Burgess Park to the Regeneration Department on Portland Street of an army of tramps - like Napoleon’s Westphalian mercenaries a-returning from Moscow - for daily sustenance, and moral encouragement for their good works. Battered, not by the Russian winter and scorched earth policies, but by life, and planning policies.
sg Says (#15697):
February 11th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
oh for goodness sake - can we talk about something else a bit more interesting than bloody drunks and tennis players. Its all become very boring.
Is there nothing else going on in Camberwell?? If you care so much either way about them, go and become a social worker or lobby the Council to do something.
Honestly………….
Dagmar Says (#15699):
February 11th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
I bought a can of Tennent’s Super in the bargain bin at Somerfield for £1. I am thinking of wandering round Camberwell with it as an experiment to see how people treat me. In my experience, it takes a normal person about two hours to drink a half litre can of Special Brew, which is a really nice drink when chilled, but by golly you’re not normal by the end of it. It really does take you to a different place, a sort of Camberwell Green of the mind.