Highs and lows
Published by Peter | Filed under Development, Eating & Drinking, Events, History
On Saturday we had the privilege of seeing Camberwell (and the rest of London) from above, as we took advantage of the Open House day at the William Booth Memorial College to climb the pigeon-shit-encrusted spiral stairs of the tower and take a look at the fantastic vista it overlooks. I have some nice pictures, which I’ll post shortly. At the top of the tower I met Merrick, of this blog’s comments fame. Not sure if anyone else was around at the time I was; I was there at about 3pm. I was the one with the scruffy beard and the sun-kissed look.
On the way down to the Chinese supermarket to get some fish, I noticed that Willow has closed down. Restaurants just don’t seem able to hold their own in this area.
I didn’t attend the march to save Camberwell Baths; call me cynical, but I think marches have to be backed up with something a little more substantial. We live in a society where facilities are judged not by their usefulness, but by their ability to turn a profit; in order to show that the Baths are of use to the community, they need to be used more — however, in order to be used more, they need to be cleaned up and reformed. Catch 22. Instead of a march, there should have been a swim-in; everyone pays their money and fills the pool. The sight of all that money crossing the counters would have the owners far more interested.
Finally, here’s possibly my favourite bit of Camberwell history I’ve ever read:
Army and Navy pensioners held a cricket match between one-armed and one-legged veterans in Camberwell, London, in August 1841. The Army lost by 19 runs to 176, allegedly because they had more one-legged players.
Great idea for next time. Will you put organise it? The point of having the march is that everyone in the community, especially the kids, a) can dress up, join in and shout a bit b) it gets in the local press, which councillors read and take notice of.
A teenager was stabbed to death on the Crawford Estate last night.
Yes nasty business — http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6998987.stm
To Helen:
Which councillors will take notice of this and what are they supposed to do once they’ve noted it?
They can’t do anything about the baths except posture and gripe in a vote raising partisan way against Southwark’s published and ratified plans for the facility.
Marching is more likely to make the Council think there’s not a lot of point engaging with the community in Camberwell because all they do is either NOTHING or biting the hand that’s prepared to offer a lift up.
Yeah, I went to Camberwell baths once. If it had been a bit nicer I may have gone back since.
Random Kia again guys so bear with me.. anyone know anywhere in Cambers that makes Shawarmas? I mean the real authentic ones with garlic sauce not your usual Donna Kebab.. I can’t keep going up to Edgewere Road to get my fix! Thanks in Advance
Not a chance Kia…this is the land of Doner…Lavender Hill sw11 has some Leb places but a bit far too!
Noura in Grovenor Gardens is incredibly cheap for real Lebanese food and is laid back, too, worth a trip on the bus. The reasonably priced and insanely huge Bekaa Valley wines are full of Levantine mystery.
Noticed a new pizzeria has opened where the Cypriot centre used to be (by the Flying Fish). Anyone tried it yet?
I saw that aswell Stuart but looks like they cut corners when ordering their shop sign as it looks like they fished it out of the local skip. I am slowly working my way down that row of shops as I want to try a bit of eveything. Next on my list is 4-t-4 lick smacking african cusine(gotta love that name) and the NEW grill place on the same side of the street as KFC.
I see our MP Harriet Harman has been caught speeding again — http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/7001183.stm
– she obviously cant wait to get back to Camberwell!
The new pizzeria is owned by the same chap who runs the Flying Fish. We went for the two for one on Monday and were pleasantly surprised — not too thick and not slathered in bad cheese.
It’s Harvest Fesitval time on Sunday in Myatt’s Fields:
http://www.motiroti.com/work/projects/current.php?data_id=63
Looks fascinating
@ Yak
Tried the new pizza place myself the other week.
It’s ok I thought.. nothing outstanding and slightly too expensive if you’re not getting the two for one deal.. over ten quid for an 11 inch meat pizza is a bit steep for Camberwell.
@ Caroline — love the bit about Harriet being caught speeding. Thanks for posting it.
I found out a bit more today about the Kennedy’s Sausages closure — it appears that a couple of their shop leases came up for renewal and the rent hike was so huge, they decided to throw in the towel for the whole chain.
I was not one of their best customers, but the olde worlde feel of the place appealed to me. I will be sad to see them go and sadder still that the factory on Peckham Rd will close. Another small-scale producer in the Borough bites the dust. I hope that the employees find alternative work and wish the owners the best. Thanks for the service over so many years.
I have lived in Camberwell for almost 30 years and I never went in to Kennedy’s Sausages. Why? Because it was crap. The only surprise is that it lasted as long as it did.
There seems to be a theme here — lamenting the closure of a store/pub that no one has actually bothered to frequent with their custom. Cf. Wordsworth, The Dispensary, Willow, et al.
I hope this doesn’t happen to The Bear.
I’m kind of with you on that one Norman, although not quite; I actually did use Wordsworth, a lot, even knowing that I could find cheaper online; so I was gutted when it closed.
But yes, if we don’t support local business, we can’t be too cross when it closes down. Having said that, there are too many businesses that just don’t move with the times; Kennedy’s was a prime example, and Sophocles similarly — they’re still selling the same range of bread they must have sold 25 years ago when their clientele was predominantly Greek/Cypriot.
I want to have a broad range of independents providing variety to the area, but they have to at least pay attention to the changing face of the community.
Hello,
I’ve lurked on the edges of this blog for a while now — so time to stop lurking and join the conversation.
I’m relatively new to Camberwell, but agree with Norman and Peter above, it’s great to have the independent businesses that there are, but compared to some of their newer contemporaries elsewhere, these more established ones are just a bit tired; like Sophocles bread (chocolate cake’s still all too tempting after swim however), or Cruzon’s veg at the end of the day. Having lived towards Dalston where the number of Turkish shops kept the competition up, or in Brighton, where the Open Market was forced to raise its game in quality and more competative prices when a Turkish (possibly Albanian??) shop opened on London Road as well, don’t these businesses just need shaking up a bit?
Did other people see this by the way? An ‘Audio slideshow: the disappearing Walworth Road’:
http://society.guardian.co.uk/flash/page/0„2171094,00.html
See London Lite last night? 42% rise in house prices in Camberwell in the last 12 months apparently.
Whilst I’m not sure how accurate the figures are I do think they make an interesting relative measure.
It said that Kensington was the only area to outperform Camberwell.
I see a new memorial has been unveiled on Camberwell Green (in fact on the site of the air raid shelter) to commemorate Camberwell residents who died in wartime bombing — see http://ukniwm.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/camberwell-memorial-unveiled/
Harvest It! in Myatts Field Park looks good this Sunday.
Another event that may interest you on Sunday is the London Freewheel — a mass London cycle ride. Around 10 miles of central London roads will be closed to all motor traffic, the aim is to encourage cycling in London and follows on from events in places like Berlin.
There are two ‘hubs’ nearby from where people will be leaving for central London — Peckham Rye Park and Clapham Common.
Further information is available at http://www.londonfreewheel.com/ (although website is not particularly good) — dont worry when it says that registration is closed: just turn up on the day, pick up your pack at the starting point and (as the late great Freddie Mercury once said) get on your bikes and ride!
@ Norman Maine
How do you know Kennedys was crap if you never went in it?
Just curious.
I’ve never been to the North Pole either but I know it’s bloody cold.
No sense in debating the merits of an extinct sausage shop.
42%! That’s loads– don’t feel you have to thank me.
What is the BIG deal about their sausages anyhow? Are they THAT good? Can a regular customer please tell me what the rave is?
Thanks Alan; now I’ll never be able to afford to buy here.
Sophocles haven’t been selling the same bread for 25 yrs. The shop opened on March 30, 1990 which I know because it’s the same day I moved [back] to Camberwell. And they ran a promotion where the first xx customers that day got a free ticket to the pool… and what’s wrong with conmniuing to bake classics like halloumi bread?
Pardon my brassy question Peter. You and your wife appear to have no children and appear to work professional jobs. You often speak of going to some very nice places, dinners, etc and to my mind have been on many a long, expensive holiday.
Surely getting on the property ladder isn’t such a struggle? We’d hate to lose you in Camberwell. And no doubt the rent you’ve paid has been enormous when added up. Surely there is a way to get that first place? Am I totally missing something?
I go to Sophocles every week.
I am afraid Peter that you are the architect of your own downfall. I am not only refering to your inactivity in purchasing in the area but the fact that you have done more for local house price inflation than I ever could.
Next time you set up an internet forum to harness the middleclasses in an up and coming area try to make sure that you have bought a house there first.
42%…
I wonder where these figures came from? I certainly wouldn’t get too excited, Alan, or indeed downhearted, Peter G. The London Shite describes the average price of a 2 bed flat in Camberwell as £365K. So I’d be surprised if they looked any further than the top of Camberwell Grove.
I was rather surprised at the figures quoted — go to websites like rightmove, findaproperty etc and the two bed flats start at about £200,000
It is a shame to see independent retailers closing and the rent hike issue seems to have hit a few on the Walworth road and in SE5. It would be interesting to to know who the Freeholders of these places are. I think communities need a balance of independent shops as well as useful chains. What this area doesn’t need is more cheque cashing shops, nail and beauty parlours, betting shops, mobile phone purveyors and pound shops. There’s a place for them but we have lots to chose from already. They seem to appear all the time and don’t seem affected by property rents.
Whilst I’m not sure how accurate the figures are I do think they make an interesting relative measure.
It said that Kensington was the only area to outperform Camberwell.
the data is junk. reflects the types of property coming on the market as much as anything. so if a couple more people on camberwell grove than is the norm decide to flog their flats, se5’s average flat price goes up. prices have risen abt 50% in this area in the last two years I reckon.
That’s good news for me, what with a murder on my road and another one just round the corner i was worrying that my home’s value was disappearing down the plughole.
The figures might be rubbish but they put a smile on my face!
I think that Sophocles, Cruson & Pauls particularly are great shops — they have a good loyal customer base, sell things that people actually want –decent quality at a decent cost, & most importantly make money…they are in no danger of going the way of Kennedys– still stuck in the 1950s with very little product diversification or imagination to meet modern needs.
If people want to buy overpriced poncey deligoods or bread — fuck off to East Dulwich for your foccaia goatcheese etc..
For the record, I like Sophocles & Cruson (and others), and use them regularly; they could still do with updating their product list a little, however, before they go the way of Kennedys.
For the other record, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek with Alan; I could afford to buy here still, but need to make my move quickly before the type of property I want moves out of my price range.
If that happens, I will change this blog to start focussing purely on the negative stories, and not allow comments to contradict me, until the speculators are put off and the prices drop again.
How about arranging a few more shootings and stabbings as well?!
But try and tie them in with the roads that have houses for sale on them — potential buyers love to see yellow Metropolitan Police murder boards outside housing
On a serious note, I think a new law is needed to prevent buy-to-let in slum areas, and prevent non-occupancy there.
This would force regeneration of those areas, with far more owner occupiers, while at the same time stopping prices going silly. There would be less life lost.
On the flip side, the property pension funds which apparently occupies some of the moral high ground in these parts wouldn’t be overjoyed…
However, recent events may yet force the corks back into their champagne bottles…
The house price data sucks. I have a beutiful 2-bed, two-storey house for sale on Grace’s Road at £315,000. Who wants it?
Olly — where are you moving to?
Peter — what type of property are you referring to?
Kennedy’s..
Kennedy’s didn’t have an amazing array of goods on offer, and the service rarely came with a smile even after shopping there over two years, but I went in soley for the bacon, which was the best in Camberwell. Buy it from Somerfield and it generally shrinks to the size of a postage stamp upon application of heat.
It’s hard to say what’s going to replace it either.. Ideally another butcher but nothing probably. Sounds like the rent is quite high round here, but no-one wants to open a decent shop because no-one shops that much round here.
And actually, if someone did have the balls to set up an independant shop selling focaccia and goats cheese round here I’d quite happily spend at least some of my money there rather than shovelling it in the coffers of Scummerfield, which is just an institutional insult to its customers.
Yes, this is Camberwell, not East Dulwich, and Kennedy’s is a Camberwell feature — if we want focaccia squashages, we get in our Nissan Figaros and wend thence through Bellenden waving at our friends like in Noddy on the telly.
I believe — my well-documented views on Council planning and parking policies aside — that one reason for the Kennedy’s chute is that the typical Camberwell consumer is now more overtly metrosexual than ever, resulting in lower demand for real meat.
At least, so it seems, they owned their properties; in case anyone didn’t realise, it is all the Kennedy’s’ including Walworth which are closing down.
Having the balls to set up an independent shop locally? Nice thought.
The Dead Kennedys: http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdodds/1388989886/
If the Kennedy’s sausages contain balls, maybe that’s why Camberwell people have such poke, edge, vim and crunch.
Reg is right. The Metro-Sexual-Lites don’t want real sausages, real black pudding, real bombs, real Zeppelins or probably real er, er…
When all the flats — Datchelor, etc. — are filled with such london-paper-people, the streets will be clogged with Ocado vans with organic avocados on board.
I advocate a march, complete with small children with their innate interest in sausages, from Kennedy’s Peckham Road manufactory to the outlet on Denmark Hill.
March? Or mush? What is it to be?
Real women, real men, real meat! Arise!
Full-on or Fulham? Camberwell or Clapham?
Easily led? Or SE5?
Good one, Dagmar!
So where are we all drinking tonight?
I hope they open a nail bar where Kennedys used to be. There just aren’t enough nail bars round here.
The Council have recently set up a slush fund to assist the needs of the gray (sic) squirrel. It was decided that the gray squirrel, as a comparatively recent immigrant, needed more funds to integrate better, whereas the red squirrel had no need of such assistance, being native. The gray squirrel will be one of the headline targets for grant assistance in the new Southwark Plan.
Went to the Grove Merrick. Thanks for asking — good Bombadier.
The red squirrels were complacent. I’m a great admirer of grey squirrels– fantastic entrepeneurs.
Ah we missed you again Alan!
Mismash & I hit the S&D.
The 1664 was cold and mellifluous.
Myatt’s Fields do today was good — many anarchists with rings in noses, thundering Ghanaian drummers (Kakasitsi — tight band, excellent, patient with pallid vegan audience), garlanded Wiccan girls full of fecund promise — fabulous nu-circus girl on stilts, longest legs you’ve seen in your life, mind-boggling.
Jazz trio in Prince of Wales nearby afterwards very good — genuine guitarist, old jazz style.
Odd area — fab park highly manicured with funding money, nice streets, London Irish Rifles TA HQ at Connaught House (interesting possibilities for coup — hijack old Land Rover plus couple of WWII Enfield rifles, maybe 1960s FNs), peaceful village ambience, bad reputation.
I missed Merrick & Mishmash, went up there at 10.40 to see what was going on…
Myatt’s Fields was good today.
Well done to the Park Project and Laura Godfrey Isaacs.
Alan, I’m off to Kent. Or would be if anyone would buy my house
London Freewheel was good — 10s of thousands of cyclists on the streets of London
Myatts Field Harvest festival also good — a gathering of all the ‘nice’ people in the area in contrast to recent stabbing and shootings nearby.
Afterwards we went to the Bear for the first time yesterday and I think I may have seen you Peter — were you sitting outside on the Station Road side with your wife at around 4:15ish? I thought it was a good pub with a good range of beers although I think the food was slightly overpriced. Then after the Bear on to the Castle for dinner and finally the S&D which was surprisingly empty.
Kent’s a bit extreme isn’t it? What’s wrong with East Dulwich?
I was a spectator on London Bridge for the cycling. Brillian stuff. Big traffic jam from the Bridge all the way back to Elephant though.
I will definitely cycle next year. What a great way to se the city…
Yes, that was me & the wife outside The Bear at about 4.15, on our way back from the London Freewheel, which was excellent. Where were you, Mumu? And why didn’t you say hello?
Hear it was fantastic, but could not join in the Freewheel due to a snapped frame (I was warned aforehand about aly), and my cadre became a cadavre — abracadavre, you are suddenly on the pavement.
Some other European cities did a full week, I think. Worth making it an issue for the mayoral campaign? Our urban car owning class needs shock therapy.
When we walked into the pub I thought I recognised you based on the photo of you with the horse which featured on the site earlier this year but wasnt sure so thought it best not to say anything.
As I said, my partner and I came in at about 4:15 and sat at a table inside near the door. I’m sure our descriptions –early 30s, white, dressed in ‘normal’ clothing– were not sufficently striking for you to have remembered us.
I was intrigued by the wedding that was going on at the Greek Cathedral across the road — very grand carriage with the two horses.
“the photo of you with the horse” — all perfectly innocent, I hasten to add.
I can’t say I remember you, unfortunately; did you sit in the main bar at the front? We were outside for a little while, then went in the saloon bar at the back.
You’re too shy Mumu — I’m always going up to people in pubs and asking them how the wife and kids are, then realising they are not who I thought.
it was worse when I had my bookshop — my sleb recognition and friends recognition often got crossed, and I would find myself hugging some MP or journalist like, well, an old friend.
I have a feeling that I may have seen you as well Drew in Myatts Fields at the Harvest thing yesterday but again I’m not in the habit of going up to people unless I’m very sure who they are.
Not to worry — we should have another blog meet up again soon?
I saw Drew at Myatt’s fields. Tried to get my youngest and his and Tanera’s talking but they would have nothing of it. Got dragged off to be hit in the head with a conker thrown by some sub teenagers who told me to ‘fuck off bro’ when I said it’s not a good idea to throw things around in a crowd. I shouted. No. Bellowed loudly ‘I’m going to get you’ and ran after them and they all got away. Nothing changes since my days at primary.
Good for you, Dodds. The daft kids of all kinds have it coming. You gave ‘em the “Dove Love” like tough love.
Drew.
Who on earth do you think has chucked a whole library of books into the recycling bins on Lyndhurst Grove by the railway?
Many have second-hand bookshop, maybe charity shop pencilled prices in.
This has been going on for a week.
The Southwark Plan decrees that all second-hand bookshops are counter-revolutionary and seditious.
So my best guess is Oxfam Pimlico, who must have run out of space on Warwick Way, where they usually book-dump.
They overprice so regularly that they don’t shift enough goods to accept new donations.
Oxfam forgets about its moral obligation to effectively recycle goods locally, and instead concentrates its donative resources on far-off climes, where they are often appropriated by unelected military leaders.
They do make some nice t-shirts.
Hi Guru
Here’s odd — at the moment you were typing I was in the very Oxfam you cite; it is indeed overpriced. In that locale I much prefer trinity hospice who have just opened up their basement to form a big cheap paperback souk; and crusaid who charge prices like oxfam but pick their stock much more literaraliraly, if you know what I mean.
I’m sorry to tell you Dagmar that getting rid of volumes of second hand books is a trial, especially genre fiction; the culprit [and the crime is really just not thinking enough, isn’t it?] is more likely a private individual who’s moving out, or a carbootsaler who has realised they would rather have their sundays in bed.
My discount book business model involves recycling all book donations either through sales or pulping for art material; junking them is somehow morally wrong.
BTW Mark it’s a brave man indeed who chases some of the kids round here; don’t let you anger get the better of you.
Drew Mishmash
PS I met the head gardener in Myatts Fields this morning and he assured me the Harvest It crew cleaned the park to perfection after ‘striking their set’; so well done both for the party and for leaving it so tidy. could we do it once a month, maybe?
Reg, is that your car currently parked at Madouse Tyres on Albany Road, silver Mazda, Reg. No. R6GNR with all the letters and numbers run together?
The Pimlico Crusaid is a brilliant shop, it’s like being in a musical there. I used to work in a grey old company nearby and would go there at lunchtime just for the crack.
Drew — stranger than the fiction which will soon feature as part of our landfill landscape.
Dagmar — I cannot accept your witty offer to take refuge in someone else’s identity. They might feel defamed as hypocrites who pontificate about urban drivers and then are seen motoring about town.
However, I think it is an excellent idea for us all to get personalised number plates — if indeed we do drive cars…
Went to the Bear last Friday night. Nice pub, friendly bloke with goatie who seems to run it, good range of beer, big wine list, reasonable mix of people and well worth going to again hence meal there tomorrow night.
London Pride a bit pricey in the Hermits the other day £3.00 seems a lot but perhaps I’m behind the times or just tight!
guys and girls, hope you don’t mind me piping up but have been a regular voyeur of this blog / forum and have become a real fan. although i have a bit of a split personality (being betwixt peckham / dulwich and camberwell) my heart is with Camberwell where Foxtons dare not to tread and McLaren buggies steer clear — despite the brilliant but imperfect vibe in the area. have seen this thread on EDF which resolutely made my mind up that I am not a dulwich-ite (they seem to think we’re on their borders and that the Sun orbits the earth) — shame on them and their organic frappy rasperry machiatos
http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,49841
The refurbishment of the Redstar seems to be cloaked in mystery…
@Talfourdite: Welcome to the heady world of leaving comments! Very interesting link, thanks; I’ll try to refrain from starting a flame war with our self-satisfied neighbours, but I have to say it’s a pretty far out idea, thinking that by renaming Camberwell it will suddenly improve.
@Norman: I have it on good authority that, owing to overwhelming public demand, it will reopen as a multi-storey off-licence.
Red* looks pretty good so far. I think they should revert to the original name as it is mentioned on the new memorial plaque on the green.
Down blame the ED crowd. It’s a Camberwell Grove Resident who is expressing his allegiance to 22 over 5.
He’s called Maurice and he’s a bit of an old school Tory. They don’t seem to want him either…
I am just off to walk the dog (crossbreed and vicious) in Ruskin Park which I am sure is in Camberwell although some think it is Herne Hill.
The park has plenty of 3 wheel buggies and braying mothers, much like east Dulwich on a Saturday morning. There is also an assortment of resident drinkers who have moved on of late hopefully to East Dulwich. Camberwell sounds much nicer than Dull Witch any day.
Both areas have their merits. There is no sense in creating divisions. We should celebrate commonalities.
thanks for the welcome. without being too contrary I do find it a tad amusing that although the ED guys harp on about the ‘edgy’ nature of their enclave — it’s pretty much turning into a Clapham clone before their eyes — if they bothered giving Camberwell Grove / Church St. etc a chance they’d realise how exciting it is an area, moreover how it’s probably got a lot more in common with the L Lane of 5 yrs ago they originally loved than the LL of today. dont get me wrong I think ED is pretty fantastic but — I think Camberwell will be much cooler in a few yrs.
unless you longterms think im way off the pace?
Your punctuation is totally to cock. Never mind, Camberwell is accepting, intelligent, liberal and tolerant, as befits an ancient settlement.
Alan Dale is surely right that we should celebrate commonality. We like visiting East Dulwich.
Yes, Camberwell is much more varied and East Dulwich feels a lot more landlocked.
Also, listen, this is maybe a little tangential, but I heard that great Radio 4 programme repeated again today, about the song “Flowers in the Rain” by The Move in the 1960s — they are the only pop group to be sued by a Prime Minister.
The Mendelsohn piano piece Spring Song is sampled at the end of it.
“Camberwell Green” is the original title of that delightful Victorian piano favourite, as anyone with a hole in their bum knows, to celebrate commonality, as we do here, public convenience on the Green or no.
“Flowers in the Rain”…remember listening to it on my parents’ ‘Radiogram’ being ‘spun’ by Stevie Merrick (no relation) on Radio Caroline back in the ‘60s
Smell the coffee.
I’ve never known what that means.
Camberwell is not working properly. It’s massively dysfunctional.
There is no doubt that, while demographics have improved steadily over the last two decades, the quality and variety of shopping and services in the SE5 area have declined significantly. Camberwell has not experienced regeneration, it’s all been about degeneration on a slow slide.
And NOTHING is being done about it other than this blog and the SE5 Forum. Local people who care. And SE5 Forum’s not got enough support to make it be the forve it could be — either from members or from the Authority.
Well actually the Neighbourhood Renewal has been doing a lot about it, collating and gathering information about SE5. Doomed to be only a record of its demise, as NR funding is likely to dry up next year…
Any how. How many of you know there is a Camberwell Neighbourhood Renewal Team? Where is the office? What do they do? They do do a lot by the way but it all gets swallowed up in the Camberwell black hole. That’s no one knows anything about them. And has no appreciation that Southwark does, actually, care about Camberwell but only on the grounds that it doesn’t know how to deal with Camberwell and has thrown out an intellectual lifeline backed up with cash potential which says ‘We don’t know how to deal with Camberwell. If you, the people who know it, have a vision, can see a possible way out of this eternal bind that constricts SE5, if you galvanise yourselves, if you are creative as a community in your aspirations for the area, we will support you all the way’.
That’s too subtle and challenging a possible way forward for the many people who live here who could actually do something good for the area if they could be arsed for a moment to apply some rational thought to what’s been going on and what’s being offered to them by Southwark.
Instead they get on high horses and March For No Practical Purpose. But that feels good, even if it doesn’t work.
Dagmar. Excuse please my misplaced commas and typos…
Where are the Deesses then?
*ha!*
Dagmar,
Poor punctuation is the most fitting tribute I can make to my vicious English teacher of years gone by. In those dark years grammatical infractions were swiftly punished by the offender being forced to graze outside the class room; much to the constant mirth of passers-by. He died a number of years ago, but as a constant offender forced to spend much of my childhood pretending to chew the cud, I send him occasional taunts for sweet revenge.
Mark, do you think that the Elephant and Castle revamp and Walworth regeneration will spill over into Camberwell, naturally restoring it to its former glory? Or will it simply be one monstrous local govt planned solution replaced with another white elephant?
Talfourdite– I share all the optimism you demonstrate in your earlier post.
I walk to Monument from Allendale Close every day. That sort of proximity to the City gives Camberwell the edge over areas further out.
We have fantastic bus services and as the new ED crowd have now realised the bus is a great way to get around. THe no 40 is a middle class bus. The 35 will follow.
We have two good train stations and in time we will get at least one tube.
The question is not whether Camberwell will fulfill its potential but when.
The pace is not as slow as people here imply.
I have lived in Camberwell for nearly 5 years in that time the amenities on Church St have almost all been reborn and the number of pub makeovers is staggering.
All we need now is the continuing and inevitable influx of middle class professionals as other central areas fill up and the remiaing outstanding shops and services will follow.
House prices in Camberwell have grown astronomically and however fragile the beta element may seem I believe that growth in Camberwell is pure alpha.
Tell your mates.
Glad to see optimism abounding. Perhaps I should apologize for my earlier dread and gloom. But reservations remain…
RUGBY this weekend: the all weather screen is finally installed. But the all weather awning is not useable — the manufactureres are trying to fix it. Gah!
BUT we are showing the whole Home Teams overage indoors on the large screen, now in glorious colour and 21st Century quality:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1067/1446712547_5f769cdb10_b.jpg
I agree, Mark, the rugby coverage is a bit ‘overage’.
I was in East Dulwich on Tuesday night. I couldn’t believe the Foxtons office. The size of it, and that pink neon! I find the way Foxtons try to sell lifestyle rather than just homes obscene. Have you seen their adverts for staff — people jumping out of planes etc. Aarrchch.
I had four letters from Foxtons telling me they could sell my flat for me. And another four letters saying that they could rent it out for me. I live on Peckham Road. Don’t think that they haven’t got designs on re-designating Camberwell as East Dulwich.
I also got a letter asking me for my thoughts on the development of Dulwich Leisure Centre. Apparently it is my leisure centre, and I can vote for the five things that I would like to see prioritised there. My personal priority would be a refurbished pool and badminton courts within walking distance at Camberwell but that wasn’t one of the choices. Can anyone give me a link to what is planned / has been suggested for Camberwell? I’ve not kept up with this one. From what Mark says it sounds like it’s not just a case of closure, there have been ideas muted?
Mel R — so this is the new localism they’ve been making speeches about.
I suggest writing back to Southwark asking them to seriously reconsider their concepts of locality. Neither Peckham, Elephant nor Dulwich is local to Camberwell. And neither Elephant nor Oval is our local tube. Even Denmark Hill can’t be considered a local rail station for many Camberwellians.
I’d rather go to the equally proximate local Queen Mother sports centre in Pimlico, where the Contemporary Butcher is just about my nearest local decent supplier of meat.
I think we should campaign to have Denmark Hill train station renamed Camberwell
Come on, Camberwell Baths is good for central Camberwell. It may not be a blue riband health club, but it’s handy for locals to walk to for yoga, swimming, small children’s play, all kinds of things. It is valuable way beyond what people quantify just for the moment.
We don’t need any more pubs and restaurants, we need Camberwell Baths.
Every house in Dulwich may soon have its own pool, true, and Camberwell Baths closed down. Only in this way can this nation be great again, it is argued by every bright spark on the way up.
Soon the 99p shop can become a 49p shop, which means we can halve the minimum wage. We can bus in more keyworkers and then throw away the key.
Let us peer through the mist of local nostalgia and sentiment about the value of the less well off. What do we see?
The rich will get Dulricher and the poor less well, but awful berks and low pay make Jake a Dull boy.
Yes.
There is a rueful look these days amongst the “every man is an island” crew.
The huge rainbow over Camberwell only this evening — where shall the children play, here underneath its arch, or in some idyllic place elsewhere in the UK, eh?
We shall soon enough see what James Baldwin saw in the United States.
“God gave Noah the rainbow sign — no more water, it’s the fire next time.”
Good news vis-à-vis our naming conundrum. Upon returning home last night I was pleased to find some swanky lifestyle oriented literature from Foxtons and it seems they are ushing in a new era for Camberwell, including a thorough re-branding of our tired image and excessively long name with a house on Ivanhoe Rd (SE5)Camden for sale for £525,000. Surely a suitable premium for all of the benefits of urbane north London living supplanted south of the river?
Dagmar — I should clarify that I meant “than to Dulwich Leisure Centre”.
Of course the Baths are important. But their decline is a symptom of a diseased organism, and rather than polish a wart we need to change Camberwell’s diet — municipal pun intended.
That means a media and lobbying campaign highlighting Southwark’s mistaken concepts of locality and deprivation, and TfL’s strategic designation of us as a pass-through, not destination.
Anything that focuses solely on the Baths is doomed to fail, even in its sole task.
You mean you fear you will catch athlete’s foot there?
Talfourdite, “grammatical infractions”, wonderful. Who needs those dots and little tadpoles when you can come up with phrases like that.
Mark Dodds, les Deesses are being polished as we blog. The 99p shop now has some Matchbox size white Ford Transit vans — last Transit model of the dynasty — also in red and yellow.
These would be very good for Camberwell town planning models. Miniature Southwark councillors could canvas the views of the tiny white vans drivers.
“It used to be nice round ‘ere, now the Duke of Marlboro is an African church.”
“Camberwell Baths? We used to dive bomb each other in there. Now it’s a wine bar for the yuppies who live in the old Mary Datchelor school.”
“I used to deliver to Save the Children there. Now I’m thinking of working for Ocado.”
And so on — it would be good.
This sounds good. We could have some matchstick police to chat about the weather to the white van drivers whilst they occupy the cycle-only patch at the lights, spilling into the yellow criss-cross area of junctions.
Whenever people mention the baths or the leisure centre I am unsure as to which they really mean. Do they both need saving?
I never use either so I’ll stay ot of it.
Peckham Pulse has an excellent pool so we go there.
I saw that Talfourdite — I also saw a 2 bed flat on Talfourd Road for £250k in the same literature. What do you think? Good investment opportunity? What’s it like down there?
Alan,
Not really that sure as to whether it is good value for money or a decent flat, but I love the road / area, it’s very quiet, a friendly street and pretty nr Bellenden Rd etc. I would say that those flats do seem to have a very high turnover rate judging from the constant ‘for sale’ signs outside. You should be aware that that side of the road is in Peckham though!
I haven’t ventured to the Pulse yet, is it actually half decent?
Pulse — Allow 20 minutes to get past reception at busy times. Very inefficient front of house in my experience.
Mark — Southwark has cleaner, greener safer money that anyone can bid for. The little row of shops at the top of Herne Hill are getting the front of the shops access sorted out free as part of this programme. As long as you meet the criteria The SE5 forum can put in a bid if they want. Camberwell has under bid so far with Dulwich Village doing very well in the past. So maybe our own inaction is the fault.
Gnomee — first we need basic planning enforcement in Camberwell first, and close cooperation between police, traffic wardens, and local business, to ensure freedom of access for visitors, and full sovereignty of access and window display rights for local shops, including veto control over new street furniture. That’s the cake.
You can’t ice a sh@t.
Dulwich, with its amalgam of Executive councillors Lib and Con, doesn’t have these basic problems, and is engaged in the kind of refinement exercises to which the cleaner greener money is suited.
Ironically, the basic services were taken away from Camberwell in order to provide the bells and whistles for Peckham and Dulwich which were the pledges of those regeneration programmes, whose budgets have now run out.
I agree on the inaction part, although ask not what the Forum can do for you.
I like Peckham.
The Pulse is great. There is a very warm baby pool that my daughter loves.
And there are changing rooms big enough to accommodate the buggy so it makes for an easy change.
There are also inflatables and the like at the ‘Rafts and Rasclaats’ session.
I haven’t been in the adult pool but it looks good.
Pulse is rejuvenated since pool opened. Swimming lessons for children there are excellent. But front of house staff are rather poor. And soft play smells of feet. CGS money very over-subscribed this year. Seems to me that Camberwell east of Denmark Hill and south of Church St is basically fine; other areas less so. Probably more to do with area demographic than any council malfeasance.
Mark you’re right. But with a lot of respect mate, what is missing to unite the voices of SE5 is leadership. I think you are fantastic and have a lot to offer, god knows you’ve given loads, but we need a leader. We haven’t had one. All the negatives you point out are what a leader would overcome. You have invested more time and money in Camberwell than anybody I know. I stand in awe of you. But we haven’t had the right leadership for the Forum or anything else to make tracks. And sorry reg, parking isn’t the root of all evil.
Florian — “Probably more to do with area demographic…” — Not too sure what you mean.
It’s true that the Council’s BME business policy is harmful, in that it creates a culture of entitlement in parts of ethnic minority communities which blunts their entrepreneurism. It purports to correct an imbalance where none exists, and in doing so creates an imbalance. Who knows, in the future such a policy might even result in an oversupply of certain types of business associated with certain ethnic minorities.
But the real problem with the Council is non–feasance. Inaction on planning enforcement, indifference to crime levels and to pavement parking offences against the community, and to the shop block of residents. The demographic is only relevant insofar as the Council makes judgments about prioritising investment based on that demographic. Unless you are saying something else…
Anyone who works for the Council would naturally be perturbed by a suggestion that basic services are being bled away from Camberwell to mickey mouse initiatives in neighbouring regeneration areas Peckham Dulwich and Elephant. It is indeed a shameful truth.
by demographic I meant that the middle classes tend to demand more of the council and be more active citizens, so eg on planning issues. this in turn tends to reflect in the prioritisation councils give to the areas where they live and on the consequent quality of environment. in se5, this is particularly noticeable. se15 too. non or mis not mal feasance as you say. trick for southwark and others is to help regenerate civil society in those areas that need it most. not easy.
Florian — I don’t agree with your assessment of the demographic. “Wilderness areas” such as Wyndham Road, Camberwell New Road, Coldharbour Lane, and Camberwell Road are fringed with districts containing judges, barristers, bank directors, and media personalities. The Grove doesn’t have any monopoly on that class at all.
Also, at any community council meeting it is true that the most active lobbyers are middle class. Yet what do they achieve? Their pleas are full of pre-existing timescales of failure measured in years and are invariably met with promises to “reconsider”.
Take the Forum — essentially its most active committee members are middle class, despite its best efforts and open invitations to participate. Yet what has it achieved, following high level meetings with the Chief Executive, Council Leader and Head of Regeneration all present, on more than one occasion?
The Forum put its finger on it: that Camberwell does not receive its fair share of the capital fund, despite this being assured following the sale of 67 Crawford Road. Yet the lion’s share still went to Dulwich, with a fraction of Camberwell’s problems with crime and anti-social behaviour, and lack of amenities for its residential density.
Then there’s the celebrity marching for the Baths, which according to your logic should be a cinch for the local middle class…
That’s some squeaky wheel, for those who think the oil always goes there. Yet, Dulwich is able to trump this because its councillors happen to constitute the Executive.
Nothing to do with the demographic. Let’s have no pretence that funds for basic services are not being regularly siphoned off to Dulwich to provide parties, balloons and new licks o’ paint.
Regeneguru,
I get the impression that you’ve been around the area for a while and hence can speak with authority. I on the other hand am a relatively new regenepadawan to the area and have not had to content with the many promises and disappointments of the past, so excuse my thoughts as I have much to learn. I have always believed that wholesale regeneration is seldom borne of centralised govt planning, but is in fact something that organically occurs through gentrification. Take Lordship Lane as a case in point. There is no disputing this is an area that has moved from relative impoverishment, to a middle class ‘utopia’ in a relatively short period of time, but I do not believe that the shops, bars and restaurants that have taken to the area have precipitated out of any inspired govt planning, more a general migration from other established London boroughs which are increasingly unaffordable, to a leafy area with a relatively attractive yet affordable housing stock, good schools and easy commute to central London. As the area improves the ‘up and coming’ prophecy becomes increasing self fulfilling, further driving improvement in the area. The same will hopefully become true of Camberwell Grove. With the Mary Datchelor being re-developed a new wave of middle class immigrants (such as myself, truth be told) priced out of surrounding areas will arrive bringing new spending power into the area. I understand that a fear of crime, poor policing and lacking education etc. would hinder this, but as an area gentrifies it begins to generate new council funds and gravitas and can, therefore lobby for improvements. I know this is chicken and egg theory to an extent, but do you believe that local govt has to initiate the process?
Talfourdite
Alan, irrespective of whatever one calls it, I think it’s great area around here. I’ve trapsed all around London for the past 8 years and never really liked anywhere till I came here. Unfortunately, despite my love of the area the Dell Boy, Mandella Estate jokes are the cross you are forced to bear with a SE15 postcode.
Interestingly — given what you observe about LL, Dulwich is still classed as more deprived than Camberwell by the Southwark Executive, despite every independent indicator as to health, deprivation and crime pointing to this as an absurdity.
See also above comments about the capital fund. Camberwell should get back in services and investment what it puts in, but in fact receives far less, not only of basic investment, but even basic services, as these are diverted to Dulwich.
When you have one area that is underresourced, underpoliced and underenforced, all the crap gravitates thereto. That area is Camberwell, surrounded by “regeneration areas” but itself not regenerated. The rape clinic, the drugs clinic, the Maudsley, the alcohol dry-out centre, the street drinkers — you get the picture.
You are right that an area can regenerate itself. It’s what I have always said. But check out the Forum site on http://www.se5forum.org for all the reasons why this hasn’t happened — there’s practically a bible of information from several well-informed locals. Or talk to any SE5 trader, especially outside the immediate area of Camberwell Green, to the North.
How many conversions from amenity to residential have you heard of in Dulwich? Yet here the planners let it happen wholesale, whilst dumping huge influxes of additional residents on ever-spiralling brownfield developments, which bring their cars and all the misery that entails for locals as they block off shops whilst parking then drive to Sainsbury’s to shop outside the area.
The relevant Dulwich Executive officer for Southwark stamped down very heavily indeed on attempts by the Mayor to designate the area as an urban density zone, as we are characterised to our misfortune.
As to gentrification, this can happen in various ways. London is full of areas which have sharply divided rich and poor, and are not pleasant places to live unless the walls are high.
Benhill, thanks, and I agree on your point about leadership. And I must point out that Regeneguru isn’t stuck on parking alone. He has a broad and objective, well informed understanding of the complexities of this area and the dynamics affecting it.
A serious practical problem the Forum has is that everyone involved is already overworked and it doesn’t have a worker to take the planning and administration through from ideas to happening. This is not for a lack of trying to find a good part time worker. None has come forward.
Gnomee — the Forum has had a share of cleaner greener money in the past and is likely to again. Forum inaction isn’t altogether the issue, bringing more skilled or expert opinion to the table would be useful and having a — anyway I’m getting into a chicken and egg spiral here so I’ll stop.
Just picked up this week’s edition of ‘Southwark Weekender’ from the S&D. There is a feature article on Camberwell, which is billed as — wait for it — “The New Hoxton”. Love it!
The erection of a urinal on Camberwell Green is a sign of hope, if you see what I mean. The closure of the Baths, on the other hand, suggests shit outweighs swimming in this green and pleasant land.
Hooray, I got post no. 111.
In Peckham Netto you can buy Starberg lager for £1.11 a litre.
I’m with Flo on this one. And Reg, Dulwich used to be bad. That’s why they got help. That’s why Peckham gets help. We are bad, just not bad enough. But we aren’t good either. So we’re destined to be just what we are.
And cars and parking aren’t going to change that.
The ability to park on Lordship Lane for 30mins is part of the reason for it’s success. I am one of those evil drivers and I love the fact that I know I will be able to park near the relevent shop each time I take a trip to ED. I also use the car park behind Butterfly walk but you need to do the Knowledge to know how to find it.
Free short stay parking is part of the solution.
Spam test — try this post with a different address.
Benhill — I have never said parking was evil. Using words like evil denigrates the debate, so do not use them unless that is your intention.
A specific type of parking is harmful, and not, it is not the only problem (where have I ever said this?).
As Lucas points out, free short stay parking is part of the solution. And yet this solution is incompatible with local resident drivers blocking off access to shops for suppliers and clients for days and weeks on end, by leaving their cars on-street, directly outside shopfronts.
Regeneguru,
Thanks for the link to the SE5 forum. I hadn’t appreciated that there were such a multitude of convoluted power (un)sharing arrangements presiding over Camberwell, such as borough government, policing and neighbourhood renewal to name a few. Clearly this disperate governance seems to to blame for a fair proportion of the members frustrations.
In the face of these many arbitrary divisions perhaps the Camberwell borders should be redrawn, with some areas sacrificed for the goal of cohesive government under Southwark. I cannot imagine the alternative of Lambeth relinquishing its territories, that would be like turkies voting for Christmas.
sorry Dagmar, you have invited me into your home and I have not even marked my possessives correctly — make that “members’ frustrations”.
an iced sh1t sounds pretty evil too, but the imagery enhances the debate undoubtedly. does southwark really consider dulwich more deprived than se5, with a consequent skewing of resources? any evidence of this? as you [reg] say, ludicrous if they do. if camberwell is to be the new hoxton, then the area needs a haircut named after it.
Haircut: The CamberHell Fin
Florian — this year the Southwark Executive decided precisely this, as part of its reasoning for allocating several factors more to Dulwich than Camberwell in leisure centre grants, despite the fact that Camberwell had not even received sufficient maintenance money over a period of decades for its leisure centre.
The sh1t comment described the policies for a geographical area which I like, the evil adjective was ad hominem so kind of interferes with debate. But I am content just to correct the inaccuracy at hand; that I suggested anyone was evil.
Good one, Mark.
I suggest the Camberwell patchy. The barber pulls some hair out by the roots in random areas, and gives grade 0 cuts in small, oddly shaped polygons at selected intervals across the crown. Some parts he allows to grow unchecked over a period of years — it is left to the discretion of the individual how these are combed.
The cut is based on policies of successive Southwark administrations which have neglected Camberwell.
surely the Camberwell Carrot, paying homage to the prodigious creation of Danny in a rare but memorable mention of our homeland. One vertical Mohican spike dyed orange with a green bottom. Alas I can’t really see it catching on, although saying that I was pretty miffed with the resurgence of the mullet.
Talfourdite — welcome to Camberwell, and to the Whirly-gig of campaigning and undeclared interests which constitute the debates hereabouts.
I agree on the mullet. A rise above a certain incidence — say 0.3% of this cut in any region should prompt sudden and emergency European funding, as it is a clear indication of contempt for your fellow man and self, which could lead to a serious disintegration of localist and one-planet values.
Regeneguru, I whole-heartedly concur. I think 0.3% might be a bit high however, if it was an infectious strain and wasn’t contained you could be looking at 1,800,000 mullets in the UK showing the same contempt for basic commonsense, self respect and society at large. Do you think MI5 have envisaged this as a viable, deliberate terrorist threat?
Deep cover MI5 agents have mulleted themselves into oblivion amongst the rest of them.
Regarding the Willow closing — it would help if restaurants in Camberwell bothered to open at the weekend. If you walk through Camberwell on a Sunday afternoon, it’s like a neutron bomb hit the place. All the restaurants are closed except for Nando’s. And they never seem to be able to fix their fizzy drink machine. Groan.
Same for weekend breakfast. We roamed around for ages once.
Cafe in Burgess Park good. But (breaking news?) they are closing down and moving! Some fight with the Council.
Where to get a good breakfast before noon of a Sunday?
@126 — Don’t know whether this is some kind of freak coincidence, but the police seem also to operate a weekday service only in SE5.
Then again, this could be an unrelated Camberwellism.
Go figure!