Nice legs, shame about the boat race
Written by Peter | Filed under Development, Places, Shopping
I had to pick up some clothes from the dry cleaners/menders on Camberwell Church Street today, but had to make a quick detour via Clerkenwell first as I’d left some meat in the fridge at work. As the wife’s out having lunch with a friend, I made it a leisurely voyage and allowed myself the luxury of stopping frequently to look around me.
What it reminded me is what a lovely place Camberwell can be; lots of Georgian & Edwardian terraced housing; long, straight leafy roads; little parks and squares dotted around it; plenty of sports facilities; nice pubs & bars.
What lets the whole area down is what most people see: Camberwell Green and its surroundings. Traffic-choked, dirty pavements, an abundance of off-licences and no shortage of clients for them. It doesn’t look nice, it doesn’t feel nice; it isn’t nice.
At the end of the voyage I dropped into the menders to pick up my clothes; two pairs of trousers, both of which had been fixed well, and at a very reasonable price. The name of the shop escapes me at the moment; it’s on the side of Cruson/Sophocles, further towards the Green. I’d like to know the story of the co-owner who, tragically, died on his 50th birthday, but I’m afraid to ask.
I noticed that work is still ongoing in the former Zara’s Kitchen; whatever’s going to open there, it involves a substantial refit. The former Rumeli has now definitively changed to Grills, etc. KFC is having a refit too; at first I thought they’d closed down, but no such luck. Still no sign of life in Angels & Gypsies.
Finally, a few nights ago I was in the Spar on Vestry Road, where a young man and his girlfriend were buying chocolate. Nothing seemed amiss, but the young man suddenly said “I want to shoot someone tonight, man; I feel like shooting someone up”. I wanted to slap his silly little baby-gangster face.
Firstly I would have had a word in the ear of that scrote buying chocolate and told him what a real sh*t he really is and risked it. This black gun crime bollocks has to stop, I know that when you say a “young man” he was black, he was wasn’t he?
If he was why TF don’t you say so?
I must agree that returning to Camberwell after a trip always makes me feel at home, ‘cos it is and has been for 17 years. I love the place and even after a lottery win would, apart from moving house, not leave.
@ Marget: Because a) this gun bollocks isn’t limited to black people and b) I wouldn’t have said a white man or black man or asian man unless it was relevant.
If we were living in Liverpool I would agree with your statement.
But this is Camberwell.
He was black wasn’t he?
Er. I’ve had Scotland Yard three times using my facilities for surveillance for Operation Trident. And I know three other people locally whose homes / buildings have been used for same.
Operation Trident is not active in Liverpool as far as I know.
I reckon he was white.
Yeah the Green & around is scummy, but at least its isn’t dead & full of fucking hoorays like Clapham & ED for that matter.Junkies, thieves & pissheads are a small price to pay for
NOT living in sterile Notting Hill style theme park .
Denmark Hill is horrible. Southwark Concil need to cut the lanes of traffic down to two (one in each direction, widen the pavements, maybe plant some trees, employ a town centre manager and do everything they possibly can to encourage the reopening of Camberwell Train station. Then it might start to resemble something like a proper high street, rather than an ugly and congested through road.
Of course he was black. I don’t know why we shy from the facts and instead cast carefully hidden hints around the edges that aren’t any better.
Even the wonderful black neighbours on my street are frightened of the black gangs. Any social work in Camberwell also admits the black cultures dominating the area are the challenges. Let’s just put it on the table and not shy from it. If it were Liverpool or even Tower Hamlets, it would be a different challenge.
African cultures also offer a lot of positives for us to build on and like you say mean we won’t become Primrose Hill. Balance and mutual respect is key anywhere. Right now, we don’t have balance and we don’t have mutual respect, the latter being mostly black communities. Not because they are black, but because of a host of other issues common to any race when they are poor, fatherless, motherless, lack education and move in from other countries in overwhelming numbers.
And let’s not kid ourselves that this and similar blogs/websites for improving things are dominated by a relatively small band of white, middle class (or aspiring) people not representative of the huge majority of Camberwell residents.
Dunno what it all means but we can at least be honest and not shy that the truth is racist. Otherwise we’ll get nowhere.
Southwark News notes that Camberwell is the ASBO capital of Southwark.
The boasty black kids who hang around Vestry Road Spar are a pest. They are a million miles from the majority of black people in the area, who consider them a pain.
The whole colour aspect is a bit boring and embarrassing, but the hip-hop thing has turned “revolt into a style” as Thom Gunn put it. As was drawn to our attention on this site when Jamail Newton was killed, it is the black youth of any colour, so to speak — of any cast of mind, and especially with those who don’t follow the herd — who are at risk and whose freedom of movement is restricted.
A black mother whose son has to go by bus to secondary school in Lewisham on his own at the age of 11 because Camberwell schools are over-subscribed has reason to worry.
We will be accused of having “bleeding hearts” (unfortunate phrase) but this sombre subject is fair game, as we discuss the merits of the Bear while waiting for the next death.
What does it matter what colour the mock-thug Peter had the misfortune to encounter is? … He’s a messed-up kid … that’s the important thing, whether he’s black, white, Portuguese, Serbo-Croat, Inuit, Pygmy or Tamil … to focus on his colour implies that his desire to shoot someone up is a by product of his race, and that, my friend, is sheer blatant racism. And it doesn’t help solve the problem
Let’s focus on his stupidity not the colour of his skin.
@Peter — I share your thoughts about how beautiful Camberwell appears when you take off the glasses of familiarity. Most days, I barely notice my surroundings, because they are so familiar and then the sun picks out a building and it hits me.
Yesterday, I went to visit a friend in Thornton Heath and got the 468 from Denmark Hill to Beulah Hill. That is an amazing journey — up Denmark Hill, down Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, up Knights Hill to Crown Point, where you think the bus isn’t going to make it, it’s so steep.
I see Maigret is back with a vengeance!
Agreed ditdot. But the stupidity we face ’round here stems from the black culture, thus understanding issues unique to their culture that lead to stupidity is important.
The fact is that there is a problem with families in Camberwell, (It’s not fair to say it’s solely a ‘youth problem’, even though this is often how it manifests itself on the streets).
I see really young kids running up and down the street, screaming and shouting, as late as midnight. It’s clear that no one is taking the slightest responsibility for their well being. These are the kids that whilst getting older, will never properly grow up.
Many of the ‘gangsters’ are just frustrated, unsocialised kids who don’t know how to react when they don’t get something their own way.
The impulse to ‘shoot someone up’ without thought is the result of an adult in a state of arrested development. It’s an extreme progression of the tantruming child, who has no more sophisticated way to express their frustration or attract attention, than screaming, shouting and hitting out at those around them.
I don’t know what the answer is. Maybe investments in schemes such as sure start and the money put into primary education might help. Better sex education might stop some of the unwanted preganancies and making sure that men are forced to take responsibility once a kid is created (rather than just disappearing) might help change the culture of family neglect. But the problem of broken families is one that has developed and worsened over a very long time and will not be fixed easily.
American branded goods — worldwide appeal. Nike. Black Americans major contributors to modernism — pared down, unencumbered with tradition. Gangsta culture nihilistic, built-in no future. Defiance and stoicism.
The kid was showing off in front of his girlfriend. They were buying chocolate. Real gangbanger stuff.
“He’s a messed-up kid … that’s the important thing, whether he’s black, white, Portuguese, Serbo-Croat, Inuit, Pygmy or Tamil.”
He wasn’t any of those things, except black. Muhammed Ali once said, “No Vietcong ever called me nigger.” Well no white, Portuguese, Serbo-Croat, Inuit, Pygmy or Tamil ever tried to mug me.
Really silly comment, dickdotcom. Your statement is liberal hand-wringing.
Well said Benhill. Very good summation.
da pygmies r big enuff 2 take tha hit
they aint no pussies when it comes 2 it
but tha camberwell peopls hv 2 take tha shit
*innit*
So KFC is getting a refit?
I tried Grills Etc on Saturday I had a Tikka roll. Not bad at all.
That said I’m not sure how healthy all the ‘with chips’ combinations can be.
I had a much healthier steamed fish and joloff rice from 4T4 Lip Smacking African Cuisine last night. Excellent place.
I can see why some perceive gun crime as a problem for Camberwell’s black community but I don’t feel comfortable labling it as such as I’m not sure that the label tackles the issue rather than just making white people feel safer or absolved from any blame or duty to intervene.
Quite disappointed with some of the reading on here? Go away for a week.. come back and everyone is racist?
On a brighter note, what is that random “bits and things” store that has opened near the Bingo hall next to the Portugese mini arcade?
The Church Street Hotel has received a glowing review in the Telegraph (contrasting with the sniffy review it — and Camberwell — got in the times).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/main.jhtml?xml=/travel/2007/09/24/et-guru-124.xml
Can I just interject before we all get into a slanging match of who’s racist and who’s not, and say I’d really prefer we didn’t go down that route.
Can we stipulate that stupid is stupid regardless of race?
I’ve seen boys holding up two fingers like guns and making shooting noises, and I’ve seen boys making ridiculous comments like the one I heard in the Spar, and they’ve been made by boys of different colours.
Stupid is stupid.
I actually saw someone get shot when I was in Brazil a few years ago, and anyone who could see that and still think it was cool is an irredeemable idiot.
Just out of curiosity — what was the brand of chocolate?
I agree with you Peter. Further clarification on which I think we’ll all agree.
I’ve been here 10 years. Every spring someone new moves on the street full of Camberwell optimism. They just can’t believe what a find so close to London. It’s bound to come up. All the signs are there. Most usually take about a year before they appear lackluster. Another year and they sell up. They do alright with profit on the house but are crestfallen by the reality of Camberwell.
One, about four years ago now, said to me after a few months ‘things just want get better with all THOSE people here’. That’s racist to me.
However, if someone were to ask me about living here, I would say ‘you will be a minority. The African community is very large here and bring with them all the pros and cons of their community, particularly poor African communities.’ I don’t think that is racist. It is the daily reality of Camberwell. We like it. The pros outweigh any cons. And it is those cons we all as a community have to work with and resolve, for all of us.
That’s the reality. We are challenged by the problems (mostly) unique to a large and growing population of poor African people. The beauty of Camberwell is most folks here for the long-term want to find a way forward that includes them. I think that is right. It will be hard. Most folks here are not part of that community but certainly are sensitive to it. And if we are honest, we often are frustrated by how we want Camberwell to be and if not careful, our wants don’t square with keeping everyone here. But if we can get it right I think it will make us different. Won’t be easy.…
By ‘most folks here’ I mean on this board.
There’s nothing about Camberwell that could not be sorted out by people communicating better with each other.
But THAT, in itself, is a massive challenge without a LOT more input from the local authorities.
@Benhill
Chadian, Ethiopian, Ivory Coast and Senegalese communities in London, to name but a few of our African diasporas, arguably contribute far less to gun crime than the white community (which by the way is not in the minority here… check the Census), although they probably suffer far more from it.
Think about that for a second, and about what “black on black” really means.
See also my recent post on the Forum on the local authority’s differing strategic approach to Camberwell’s ethnically diverse population.
As Regen says white people are still the dominant group in Southwark and in the different camberwell wards — see http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/profiles/00BE-A.asp for example for the Southwark picture and if you want to get more detailed go to the neighbourhood statistics section for the camberwell wards
None of our social problems stem from race. It’s just a clash between those who have money and those who don’t. Does anybody know of any area in London where rich, middle income and poor people happily mix?
Politicians offer platitudes about helping people escape poverty, while actually writing them off. The elite live in a different kind of Britain anyway. Meanwhile, the poor do awfully in school, heading for a life of under achievement. Their kids will do the same.
I’ll stick around for now and gladly contribute to life in Camberwell. But to be honest, once I can afford somewhere with nicer shops and friendlier people I’ll go there. Life’s too short.
Thanks Mumu, and excellent post from Butterball.
However, I would add that some of our problems stem from preconceptions about — if not race — then cultures and communities closely associated with race, by local authorities, in the way that they plan:
They don’t like local shops
They don’t like exercising unless it’s playing basketball or football
They eat burgers and jerk chicken, primarily
They like to drink a lot
They shop at Iceland
They don’t go to the theatre
They’re incorrigibly criminal, so it’s a waste of money trying to rescue that area. Better invest in the good ol’ boys of Dulwich.
if that’s so, how come peckham has a spanky new library and leisure centre [no footer or basketball there]. plus lots of “local” [sic] shops. it has a similar demographic to camberwell, so your hypothesis shld apply equally. but it doesn’t seem to. or have I misunderstood? east dulwich has an iceland.
Peckham has media gun chic — you’ll note that many of the recent Camberwell killings were reported as being in Peckham; more grist to that funding mill. Not investing in Peckham is politically indefensible.
I’m not suggesting there’s a eugenics programme. Just that some people’s judgment might have been affected on certain issues.
PS — anyone that works for the Council has a duty to declare that if specifically defending their policies.
I like the idea of the patrons of the Camberwell Hotel reading ‘American Psycho’ & ‘Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas’
during their stay here in Camberwell.
We’ll know who to blame if we start getting a spate of serial killing . The drug psychotic Mr Thompson & his ‘attorney’ would be the last people you would ever want to stay in your hotel — so an amusing choice of authors for the hotel trade.
but @ 30 I thought criminality meant the council gave up on an area? the only confusion in terms of reporting crime is between kennington and camberwell and that’s to do with the location of the nick.also, isn’t camberwell a media pin-up in terms of deprivation and criminality. kids company’s in the press every week; even the
archbhisop’s in on the act. i’m not sure what you say is quite right.
I fundamentally disagree that Camberwell has the same profile for crime and deprivation as Peckham in the national media. Have Brown or Blair visited SE5 recently with attendant cameras?
As stated, Camberwell killings are often mistaken for Peckham killings — never vice versa.
Dunno. Can’t tell but this seems to indicate it is at least neck and neck.
http://www.southwarkalliance.org.uk/pdfs/populationprofiles/camberwellcommunitycouncilprofileexecsummary.pdf
Still, the comment about haves and have nots is fair dues. Suspect it is about money, as always.
this is the most pedantic point i’ve ever made, and I think the point you make is both odd and arid, but the last murder in the area was reported as being in camberwell — see here -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6986014.stm. — whereas the poor chap’s body fell in the se15/peckham bit of burgess.
Benhill — thanks for the stats. One of the big strategic challenges facing Camberwell is that no-one has really accurate statistics for it as an area, though, as it overlaps with Lambeth.
Florian — Dead link.
Nothing wrong with a bit of pedantry, as our debate needs to be informed if it is to be useful — thanks for this.
I’m sticking with my point that Peckham has a historical profile of media gun n gansta chic which has given it unstoppable funding momentum, and I deny that the current Peckham investment has much to do with SE15’s actual need for resources, but everything to do with political embarrassment nationally were there to be no action taken.
I admit that Livesey Ward has got all Southwark licked (used in the Twainian form) for crime, deprivation, poverty and need, but the Green comes equal second. Why then are there three strategic investment areas outside the Green, only one of which — Peckham — has equivalent deprivation, crime or low life expectancy?
I am raising the spectre of an unpleasant reason for this, without saying that it is conclusively the case. Absent a rational answer, of which none has been forwarded, that reason cannot be completely dismissed as part of the explanation for local policy on Camberwell, of successive administrations. It could also be party politics, but it isn’t clear.
I agree Regen — the Lambeth end of Camberwell is often thought of as Brixton and regarded in the same way as Peckham in terms of deprivation etc (perhaps even more so due to the riots etc) and so it has attracted investment. Wards such as Vassall and Coldharbour which fall partly in SE5 are amongst the most deprived in the borough and so have received attention.
I for one have become disillusioned. As someone mentioned, life is too short. same price, less shootings. I’m off to Forest Hill. I feel disappointed and carry affection for the area, and smell the potential. I also guiltily smell a healthy profit on my investment.
Anyway, good amateur community planners of Camberwell, pack up your opinions and join in a debate. And booze is free on teh night. (Sorry this is me with my RIBA job hat on) anyone would be welcome to come along, just contact Mike at the email/number below for a ticket. Let Mike know you’s from here if tickets become short and we’ll fit you in.
Publc debate: “This house believes planners should stop social engineering”
What future for socially concious planning? What is a mixed community? Does it work? Is planning a prohibitive force in encouraging innovative design?
Building Futures / RIBA lecture
Time and Place Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2007
Time: 7:00pm — 8:30pm
Location: Building Design Partnership
16 Brewhouse Yard
LONDON EC1
Info Phone: 02073073620
Email: buildingfutures@inst.riba.org
hope some of you come along. I’ll be the tall ginger bloke.
Wookie, lecture sounds interesting. I will book a place and say Hi on the night.
Wookie, I am working that night, but I would have loved to come along. Know a few RIBA people and would definitely recommend it.
My business is slap in the middle of the most deprived wards in the UK but my freeholder — Scotstitch-u-up & Newcastle Pub Enterprises — behave as if we’re in Knightsbridge.
Hahahahahaha
A Polish care worker was shot dead in New
Cross yesterday.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2584819.ece
I think the gangbangers who killed her bought Green & Black’s Organic chocolate before they blew her fucking brains out.
David Cameron, apparently, made a rousing speech yesterday. Er. Why did he even bother?
Your business is also next to one of the largest busiest hospitals in the country, round the corner from an art college, near a university hall of residence and within spitting distance of a 1982 Wates develoment of flats and two bed-room cottages.
I can see that they may be hammering you for rent but you are hardly in just an average estate pub location.
Agreed
There are only three ways to get rich in Britain.
The lottery, capital gains on housing and enterprise.
The influence of luck on each of those routes diminishes down the list but it it still highly significant in all.
Good luck Mark.
Agreed again Alan.
And thank you.
Part of my general point about Camberwell is that businesses in Camberwell need inordinate amounts of luck. without Kings I would have been out of business ten years ago. But Kings is not a guaranteed cash injection (issues of whether or not S&D adequately and consistently satisfies Kings’ staff’s multifarious needs aside) and I chose S&D because Kings was nearby. If the building had been 100 metres further along Coldharbour from Denmark Hill there is no way I would have taken on a lease.
As it is, people who have known about S&D for over a decade, and believe it is an asset to the area by reputation but who live on the other side of Camberwell, have never visited, never spent a quid there. Never been inclined to go anywhere else in Camberwell either. A lot of this does not apply in Knightsbridge. Or Portobello. And on.
Cambwerwell is not a lucky place.
Do you know that Allendale is a place in Northumberland?
Try to think of the number of people you know that have made their fortune, and followed a rags-to-riches wealth curve in Camberwell. I can think of Frank of Tadim fame, although I don’t know about the rags part.
Then, when you have a figure in your head, remember that Camberwell is a high density zone.
As it happens, I need to open that Tea for Tramps place, but every empty shop I know is being lived in illegally to the general indifference of the Council, so I’d have to pay residential prices in a criminal area. No, bro.
Too True Blue
And Frank had a few narrow escapes too don’t you know.
People are angry.
Well, I’m up the duff, so we’re probably going to move.
@ 40 Wookie Thanks for the info on the RIBA debate I will be going along as well and will try to say hello.
Camberwell is a slum. I wish some of the posters who visit this site would stop talking it up like it’s some charming neighbourhood with sepia characters everywhere.
Unless you live on Grove Lane it’s a dingy hole around a busy crossroads. That’s it.
People talk about how it’s on the up but it’s never going to be the next E Dulwich or whatever. The housing stock isn’t good enough, and there’s too much scum about.
Give me sterile Notting Hill or Clapham any day! But I can’t afford it. So Camberwell it is. Oh well, at least I can escape it on holidays.……
But then you have to come back to it.
Alan-a-Dale was an outlaw, one of Robin Hood’s gang, the “Merry Men”. The Hood. The hood.
Wookie, you have seen the worst, you have earned your move to the Forest. You are not in the nicest bit of Camberwell.
There was a interesting article about Ray Lewis and the Eastsider Young Leaders Academy, in You magazine 2nd September Daily Mail. Turns bad black boys into boardroom material, kinda thing.
Phil, you are right. For a long time I fought believing it. My wife and I were quite involved in the old Camberwell Forum, we laughed at those ‘two year-ers’ who wouldn’t stick it out and how they will soon regret it. But I think you are right.
People here talk and talk and talk some more about what ‘should be’. But no one ever does anything. Those before and those before them didn’t either.
Others offer rose coloured glasses and act as if it is some sort of funky village that the true intellectuals get. I did try that route for a while.
In the end it’s just a dump. God I hate agreeing with you but I do.
Benhill & Phil G, I think you’re being wilfully blind. Do you really think it’s a slum? Take a walk around Grove Lane, the SLG, Brunswick Park; open your eyes and look around you. It’s far from being a slum. It’s not a funky village, either.
It has its problems; you won’t find anyone here who denies that. But I’ve been here on and off for ten years, and I’m here out of choice, not necessity.
As for the thinly-veiled attack on the ‘scum’ who live here, Phil G, I wonder if you’d be bold enough to say who you actually mean.
If you’d stop killing yourself with middle-class aspirations of living in Notting Hill or somewhere where there are no ‘scum’, you might get a bit more out of the area.
Good on Ya Pete!
let them fuck off to Clapham!
I don’t think Camberwell is full of “scum” either, though I’m not sure it’s such a good idea to goad Phil G into naming the strata of society that he labels in this way, Peter. If he does, there’ll be another 100 posts agreeing with him or calling him scum.
I grew up in Wandsworth and the nice end of the borough was always (and remains) Putney. I wanted to live in Putney for years and then my sister moved there in the mid 80’s. Over 30 years, I watched it develop into a place that I now wouldn’t live in. Too many yummy-mummies, hoorays, Australians (no offence) and (white) South Africans (take offence if you like) for my delicate tummy. In other words, it’s a bit (low-budget) Beverley Hills 90210, or whatever it’s called, set to a grey London budget.
Phil G — you may find Putney more affordable than Notting Hill!
Congratulations, Amanda.
Ditto ben patio
Stay Amanda!
Yes, Amanda, well done. Golly! How did that happen! There is no need to move, though. The primary schools are good if you’re in the right road. The mix of people you get in Camberwell is as good as you’ll get anywhere — anywhere.
I always thought living in Camberwell WAS doing something for Camberwell. Still, the area is not a charity but an interesting place to live.
In many ways the city is increasingly the place to be. You can live in Hay-on-Wye and go round the bend. Living in Clapham, Putney, Notting Hill, Primrose Hampstead and such places is like sitting a continuous exam. The Joneses are always going to do better, et cetera.
Dagmar’s right — spot on that is — about primary schools. They are good. Difficult to imagine a better cross section of well behaved REAL inner city life anywhere else. It kindev all breaks down after that though.
And living here is doing good for the area. There’s an analogy for it but can’t think of it just now.
I certainly agree ‘scum’ is brutal. However for my part, I don’t think I’m being ‘willfully blind’.
I want to ask a serious question and know I risk answers that kept me off this board for a while. I don’t like the term scum, but sometimes in my heart of hearts when I’m about, I have some very unkind thoughts about people in Camberwell. Thoughts that I have to call into battle in my own head to shoot down. I think my increasing frustration with living here is I don’t like what I’m becoming.
Peter, and bon bon, do be careful. Short fuse tempers that seem ignited when someone may disagree (albeit poorly phrased by Phil) with your views help no one. I know these are your boards Peter but we have to acknowledge a lot of good people are struggling with making sense of Camberwell’s daily experience.
Then again, maybe I’m alone. I’m finding it harder and harder to enjoy the area and hate what I am becomming. Telling me to f* off to Clapham is not helpful.
Congratulations Amanda, and good luck.
I sympathise with Benhill to this extent: the fact is that the majority of posters here do work 9–5 and spend most of their Camberwell leisure time in Camberwell Green or towards the Phoenix or George Canning, not in the outerlying sectors to the north — the virgin territory or “front” of Camberwell, depending on whether you are a planner or resident.
Yet those of us — including myself — reluctant to demonise some ethnic communities by addressing some negative aspects of part of the culture of their London diaspora, usually skirt round the subject completely, which is only marginally more helpful. Well, here goes.
There are vocal minorities of certain communities which will always believe — to their dying day — that it is possible to identify the descendants of a colonial class through their skin colour, and that these representatives must pay for the sins of the father by having their rights continually overreached.
Whereas any amateur historian knows that skin colour was never a guide to ruling someone in or out as a dealer in slaves or “souls”. However, the Labour Government’s indifference to the massive decrease in social mobility fertilises such views amongst disadvantaged communities.
This victim status is also pandered to by local authority BME grants which more often than not create business cultures of entitlement which causes them to fail when public money is cut off.
But the “scum” — as such there are — are historically the result of poor high density planning, and dumping of whole communities with little English into concentrated areas, with little assistance to integrate.
Successive Southwark administrations have persisted in not so much underinvesting but strategically disregarding Camberwell. There may be unpalatable reasons for this (see above @38). That is the real punishment for not being a regeneration zone: that funding for your basic services will be leeched to surrounding regeneration areas.
North Camberwell is lawless, for many intents and purposes. Just think how many murders and rapes would take place if we had no law against these crimes, and then it will help to understand that it is not really the calibre of people in Camberwell, but the strategic approach of local authorities, that is to blame for the anti-social behaviour and aggression which plague us.
Probably all correct reg and fitting for a proper academic debate. What frustrates me, increasinly, is
a) no one will do anything about it. 10 years on and the same problems plague us, and no group is doing anything more than debate it.
and
b) it doesn’t hold individuals accountable. We blame the Council, we blame ourselves, but we don’t blame to source (not scum, but perhaps Peter’s more apt ‘stupid’ is acceptable).
It is why I must agree more and more with those who used to say to me re: the Camberwell Forum ‘don’t waste your time, it is Camberwell and ain’t a gonna change so bide your time, sell up and go’.
For years I have seen what Peter described in the original post here. Potential. More than any other place in South London. But when we failed to get the tube it was really all over. We are left pondering our next move while the credit crisis unfolds.
..and what we fought against becomes something we’d crave:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/janice_turner/article2599506.ece
I didn’t tell anyone to f*** off to Clapham, I said there’s an awful lot here that’s worth more respect than it does from a person like Phil G. If you want nice housing, look at the area around Myatt’s Field, Brunswick Park, south of the South London Gallery; There’s a big artistic community so lots of small galleries; Ruskin Park is turning into a really champion spot; take a look through the photos on the Camberwell SE5 Flickr group for some of the hidden corners.
As I said, I’m here because I like it. I like the pubs, the parks, the easy access to the city. I utterly refute the accusations that it’s a ‘slum full of scum’.
I’m not blind to it’s problems; I write about them here, and I don’t shy away from them. Having said that, I don’t believe the problems define the area. There’s an awful lot here to like, but if you convince yourself that it’s all rotten, you’re never going to see it.
I think we all know it wasn’t you who made said comment. I didn’t mean to suggest you did.
And of course you are right. But you make my point. Why should we all have to continuously convince ourselves it is a nice area. Shouldn’t we just enjoy it daily without having to convince ourselves?
I’m growing weary of taking a stroll to shops and having to have the argument in my head and seek out nice spots to cancel out the reality. I want to stroll to get my paper or shop and just enjoy my neighbourhood.
I cannot and do not do that. It has been a very long journey to finally admit that.
And as for changing it, we are subjected to daily diatribes from highly intelligent people on the problems, we even have a multitude of possibly solutions, but we can’t manage even one step forward. In fact, I fear we’ve taken many back.
slum scum manage carnage diatribes tribe diet pills money transfer millwall appalling
One of my favourite visual Freudian slips/rhymes is colleague/alcoholic.
I think we should start a “Amanda Fuller Please Stay” Campaign with the strapline, “Look How Interesting Your Child Will Become It Will Find Camberwell Fascinating Everything is Here for Its Imaginative Development It Is Like Living in an Encyclopledia for Children Complete With Peoples of the World What’s That Bang Postman Pat’s Van Backfiring No But Don’t Act Naive and You’ll Be OK in Camberwell Your Soul Will Shrivel Amongst the Let’s Infantilise Our Children Museli Belt Drivel”.
simmer down. few if any of us were born here. so camberwell’s only a post-code, with little integrity or unity beyond that. so if you don’t like it, leave. if you do, stay. the area’s very urban, but fine. not sure why anyone’s surprised at what goes on at the margins.
Thank you for the congratulations! I want to stay, but I’m finding now that I’m pregnant and thinking about my small person arriving sometime next April the things that I previously found exciting and challenging and vibrant are increasingly seeming scary and dangerous. If I am feeling this protective and defensive of my bump then how much worse am I going to feel when I have to wheel my wee one past weaving drunks on the green and yellow ‘murder’ boards in Burgess Park? I am not naive enough to think that these things don’t happen in the ‘burbs but they certainly aren’t as prevalant.
Dagmar — I agree that the primary schools are great and we leave near a fab nursery too, but the senior schools are worse than dire. Not that I have to worry about that for a while yet but…
I am very touched though by the encouragement to stay, there are some lovely people in Camberwell and on this forum, even if many are quite angry and disillusioned at the moment too!
Benhill — I completely understand your comment about not liking the person you are becoming the longer you stay in this area, I have had exactly the same thoughts myself. I too don’t like some of the thoughts that pop into my head these days and it depresses me. The fact is, there are scum, and plenty of them, and whats more many of them are violent scum, and that’s why we get angry and scared. I hear comments like that made by the youngster in the spar on the bus daily by these clueless, feral, DANGEROUS imbeciles and it makes me want to flee the country, let alone SE5.
Thanks Amanda. It makes me feel slightly better to know I’m not alone. I doesn’t make me feel better about myself. My wife is the same. Good luck.
And if I said ‘if you don’t like it leave’ to some sectors of Camberwell, I’d be crucified on this board. Funny that.
Also, I live in what I think is the heart of Camberwell. I don’t get to the ‘fringe/edge’ too often.
Another question: how many of you have to work hard to get friends to visit? And when they do, are you on edge like us hoping they arrive without a harrowing tale? Many friends won’t come at all anymore. A few seldom do and I always pray the bus journey is quick, trouble free and they don’t arrive looking a bit worse for ware (inevitably requesting a taxi home).
Perhaps we can turn this into a more (darkly) humorous thread and tell tales of sitting in the window at a decent restaurant thinking we actually may have proved it’s a nice place when during dessert the junkie exposes himself outside the window. It’s one of many true stories and my wife and I tried to distract our friends at the table scripted like a bad sitcom.
Dagmar, while I’ve always enjoyed your posts, sometimes they feel like judgement, even dismissal from the intellectual elite. I’m sure many will defend you, as they believe you must be right, even if they don’t really agree and/or even understand. You are one hell of a writer, though.
I have had a heart to heart with hubby this evening and I think we will be staying.
He reminded me that I have gone through many love/hate phases towards this area in the past, and that there are many things about this area that I do, in fact, love. And there have been improvements in the six years we’ve lived here. Hopefully these will continue.
For all that scary things seem to go on around us, we have never actually had anything happen to us here, whereas in Essex and North London, where we have lived previously, we were robbed several times and mugged once.
Dagmars post (71)also reminded me of the things I do love about living here. I grew up in a remote Essex ‘burb and it was grey and samey and all us kids were bored stiff. That’s probably why most of us have ended up in London!
Damn pregnancy hormones! I am all over the place at the moment. I’ll probably have another few hundred changes of heart over the next few months.
That reminds me — anyone know what the antenatal facilities at Kings are like??
They are really excellent. One reason to stay in Camberwell is King’s. The midwives are fab. We’ve had two children processed at King’s and both came fit for Camberwell.
The world of parents with small children in Camberwell is good and very different from the pub, restaurant and going to work world.
The parks are the beginning — they are wonderful. Here, parents and children find what Alan Dale calls commonality.
NCT is good. May I repeat our story that the local NCT co-ordinator of the time cocked up and sent us to Grove Park near Eltham not Grove Park near ‘ere, silly snooty cow — she left lots of silences on the phone, she was that type, a true professional.
Our Eltham NCT group has stuck together ever since — 5 years. Two of the families are old Camberwell hands who moved to Eltham for affordable housing, from big council estates here. So — we were lucky going to Eltham which many people consider a white racist area and all that — anyway, it is a big bond having your first child together.
It is a matter of immense pride to bring up a kid in Camberwell. It has always been a matter of pride to grow up here.
Ben Hill — I’m sorry, more later, common-law partner says come to bed.
So, Ben, after the few hours sleep that the Camberwell parent of whatever hue small children has, I can’t remember what I was going to say.
Camberwell is not a place to stroll round. That’s Tunbridge Wells. I bet there are needles there, too, though.
Yes I appreciate that. I’d add that the Dry Cleaning family who’ve been here ages once said ‘if only Camberwell of M-F daytime could be the Camberwell of evenings and weekends’. I believe there is truth in that. We stopped using Burgess Park ages ago but did go up on a Thursday morning not so long ago when my wife and I both took the day for DIY. IT was so tranquil and beautiful. Chumleigh Cafe was just a treat (even though we learned it was shutting down soon). M-F daytime. A different world.
In Tunbridge, the needles and such are kept in one of 2.5 bathrooms inside lovely homes and drugs bought for pristine party occasions fuel the trouble on our streets. I really did understand that.
It is just such a frustrating place and daily live at work is stress enough. We should want to escape home to a bit more.
I’ve lived in Camberwell for over 12 years now, having moved here from the Walworth Road (and before that, from inner Sydney — yes, I’m an Aussie).
A few points to throw into the debate:
- a house 4 doors down from me and identical to mine was put up for sale a couple of weeks ago. Asking price? £590k. And no, I don’t live on Grove Lane, but near Brunswick Park. Point being: there are lots of nice areas of Camberwell, and estate agents think so too.
- I am a senior manager in Royal Mail and as such, was asked to volunteer on Saturday at the Camberwell sorting office to help people collect their parcels, recorded delivery letters, etc. It was interesting to see the diverse group of people who came through the door.
For every black person, there was a white person. People from different African places, from across the commonwealth, lots of Aussies and lots of eastern Europeans. For every person who seemed to me to be working class and perhaps low incomed, there was a seemingly well educated, high incomed person. (Don’t judge me on this, hopefully you know what I mean.) I served people ranging from professors, doctors, BBC reporters (I saw their ID cards) to shift workers on their way home and little old ladies wondering where their post was.
To me, they reflected Camberwell — a melting pot of ethnicity, age, backgrounds, wealth, class and so on. That’s why I like it — good and bad, there aren’t many places like it in london.
If you don’t like it, please move on and leave it to those of us who love it!
florian @ 72 “few if any of us were born here. so camberwell’s only a post-code, with little integrity or unity beyond that. so if you don’t like it, leave. if you do, stay”
IT JUST ISN’T AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
Many people choose to come / gravitate to Camberwell for similar reasons, from all parts of the world / UK. Escape from Small Town being one of the many reasons.
They come here for their own reason then meet other people — now local people — neighbours, shopkeepers, casual bump into people at the pub people, ante natal class people, schoolgate people and find that lots of them are surprisingly like-minded without any of the small town-ness about them and they all begin to find something they haven’t experienced anywhere else: The foundations of a healthy COMMUNITY which includes all sorts of people from different backgrounds and experiences all getting on, empathising with and caring for each other.
This is rare. And not something you just give up easily. There is a lot of day to day hassle and reminders that it’s not all hay and sunshine in Camberwell but the underlying community spirit is not something to throw away lightly.
If you move to a different postcode or the home counties, there’s little chance you’re going to find as good a ‘fit’ anywhere else.
This thread is getting very repetitive.
Benhill — I think I liked you better as a lurker!
Too bad if your middle class friends don’t like to come to Camberwell
for your soirees –why don’t you go somewhere safe & unchallenging instead like Kent?
I love living in Camberwell for the very reasons you dislike it !
A bit harsh, bunbo. You can’t really like Camberwell because you relish being flashed by a junkie as your tucking into your chicken cheaper marsala, surely! Then again, it takes all sorts.……
I think this thread has touched a few touchstones — that’s why it’s heading well towards the 100 postings mark. And this blogsite is at its best as a sounding board for the fears/loathings and joys of its users.
My soiree days, are at an end if I give into worrying about the safe passage of those attending. Those who arrive ashen-faced and fearful should be struck from your list of invitees for the next one, Benhill!
Harsh indeed.
I worked on the old Forum for a long time.
I support Camberwell Arts in significant ways including Cooltan Arts, because I believe two treasures here are art students and helping those with mental challenges.
I am a member of the Leisure Centre.
I support the children’s choir at St Giles, which reaches out to all communities via music as an activity to channel positive energy.
I invested in a home here. I keep it up, clean even cleaning my wider street when things get too bad.
And yet to bon, I want too much and can get the hell out.
I want killings to stop. I want basic rudeness to stop. I want streets that aren’t littered with rubbish, poo and urine. I don’t want Starbucks but a little more variety and quality wouldn’t go amiss.
I know. I’m a terrible person.
As for SG, I understand what you say about diversity. My street is a little global village. None of them are at issue here. Weren’t you not so long ago railing for better? Didn’t you meet our good friend Wingfield and act as if you’d struck gold with things that if you were really in the know, have been promised for years (and have nothing to do with our Council)? Can’t this be a place where those who love Camberwell try and find a way forward so we can stay?
Obviously not. Love it or leave it.
Hi All
I’ll bet I’m the only person on this forum who goes to Fus and bar Miura, but who also uses the library and emails his councillor. Who knows the Hoa Viet menu inside out, and can speak Vietnamese to the staff, and who regularly gets a foul £1 bag of hotwings from Morleys. So please don’t tell me about not knowing what Camberwell has to offer.
My ex lived in Putney. It’s a bit dull, that’s true, and I wouldn’t really want to live there, but “nice” though, isn’t it? My car insurers wouldn’t cancel my policy if I moved there, like happened for SE5, know what I mean?
No pig chopper out every night, no crowd of smackheads/alkies at the foot of the street, no shootings, no yellow placards at the roadside. Do these colourful things really add to my existence in any meaningful way? Do they improve my day? Are they simply the price to be paid for the few glimmers of interest around (House gallery, Hermits, Edwardes, err…) Can I walk around getting off on being somewhere “challenging” and “interesting”, or where people are struggling to communicate with each other? No.
By saying that am I some dreadful middle class killjoy who should just up sticks and move to Surrey and leave Camberwell to the “real people”? Maybe. I suppose I can just get a taxi to bar Miura. There’s no need to live in it.
I’m not going to waste our time defining “scum”. With hindsight it wasn’t the best term to use. The key phrase in my post was “too much” scum. At the bus stops there’re plenty of good folk with discipline, decency and yes, degrees. But, come on now, there’s a lot of scum about. And to me it’s not about colour, it’s about attitude, though some may say they blur in certain segments of society.
I think my neighbour would say that. He got threatened by the dealer over the road when he complained that said dealer blocked him in (again). Handy for the kids though. Wish I’d had a dealer on my street when I was a teenager!
So I can’t speak about the primary schools, Amanda, but I’d get your kids well out of there before there’s any danger of them falling into the Peckham Academy (sorry, Academy@Peckham) catchment. I think I’d rather homeschool them than send them to a senior school in SE5/15.
Anyway, back to my original point, which was: you might have a nice street or house in Camberwell, but the “heart” of Camberwell is, and most likely will stay, an awful, shabby collection of run-down shops by a very busy crossroads. Go out and have a good look at it — it’s a slum.
Mind you, the same could be said of much of S London. The Green could be nice but I only go there to watch tramp fights. There was a superb one the other week, lor!
Is there community between, rather than within, the disparate groups? Of course not! Though I suppose those Mums campaigning on the baths are giving it a go.
Is Camberwell on the up? Well once upon a time Notting Hill and Clapham weren’t so nice, so who knows. Like I said, I think there is too much low housing stock in big segments of CWell (especially north of Peckham Road) for it to be along any time soon.
I get the feeling that many people here would like it to be like NHill and Clapham. One of the reasons I sometimes visit this great site is because it points out spots that may be regenerated into good restaurants, shops, bits of niceness etc.
But are things going the right way generally? Shortly before I moved to CWell I remember there was a good bookshop in that dreadful shopping centre. I can’t tell you how sad I was when it closed.
Yet it was also a bit of a shame when Jack Beards got turned into a gastropub that, on the few times I’ve been there, has been spectacularly empty. How long will it last?
Let’s not forget that not so long ago, not far from Beards and the ex bookshop, some youths got machinegunned. That’s machinegunned. Now, if there’s some sort of wonderful community pay-off for someone like me living near that sort of dynamism, and the bus clogged dump that is most of central Camberwell, it is this and only this: cheaper property prices.
So, buy up, put up, wait, get out. Like many folk here have done and will do.
In the meantime, I’ll have a bowl of spicy beef noodles and a jar in the (gentrified and middle classified) Castle. And I must get that book back to the (poorly stocked) library.
Cheers!
Wow, sorry for going off on one like that. V unusual. I’m just trying to put off doing some work. But this is indeedy an interesting subject.
I need to be clearer. I knew Camberwell (most of it) was a dump, that’s why I moved here for a cheaper flat. So to compare it to Putney, Clapham etc is pointless (though I dispute that these places are inherently dull).
BUT, I am surprised and often disappointed by how much of a dump Camberwell has turned out to be.
AND, while some of that is the physical awfulness of central Camberwell, a big part of it is the amount of substance abuse cases / disaffected yoof gangstas / couldn’t give a shit types living here.
There, that’s it.
Cheers!
ps, it could be worse. You been to New Cross recently?
Phil G -
Anh co? nghi? r??ng th??c ?n ?? Hoa Viet thâ?t s?? ngon hay không? Tôi không nghi? nh? vâ?y!
Phil G–
Anh co nghi rang thuc an o Hoa viet thuc su ngon hay khong? Toi thi khong nghi nhu vay!
LOL! God how predictable.….
Cuu toi voi!
But I deserve it!
It’s hard to read your work without the tonal markers, but I have to say that even if they showed I’d be struggling.
Sorry, I’ve made no claims to fluency and beyond Co koe khong, xin loi and cam um, it’s simply nem, nuoc mam, bia hoi, and pho bo to me!
Still, it seems to goes down well.
See you in Fus then, eh Bun?
Phil G–
Tried to type VN properly but the website doesn’t like it..
Have you been to the Eastern Tree?
I think their food is a lot better than
H V
keep up the good work!
What, in the name of Sweet Baby Jesus is a hot wing? Anyone?
it is a breaded deep fried chicken wing with hot spices in the crumbing.
A must for pissed post pub munchies at 5 for a quid at Morleys.
Morleys is also excellent from ‘scum ’ observance (for the anthropologically inclined!
Andy why do they sell them in 5’s — surely each chicken has 2?
I know the sort: available with chips and can for £1.99, £2.49 or similar.
Thats far too sophisticated for me — I prefer the standard chips and kebabs etc from the kebab shop next to the Buckle.
Early this morning at about 2ish I randomly saw a former flatmate who I havent seen or spoken to for about five years — the pleasures of night time Camberwell!
@ benhill.
Yes, that was me. Apologies for being excited about the stuff Ian W was talking about to do with Camberwell — I have no other ways of getting this info, you see, as I don’t attend council meetings (yawn), read the SLP or other local websites.
And I foolishly thought others might be in the same boat as me and also not know about this info. None of my neighbours knew about it beforehand either.
Er, and of course I’d like Camberwell to be better — but I also don’t sit and complain about it. If it improves over time, well and good, and if I can do little bits to help by visiting local pubs and restaurants, all the better. But if it just stays the same, or even gets worse, I’ll still stick around.
BTW — went into the Castle on Weds night for what we thought would be a quiet drink. The place was absolutely packed, at 6pm. Winston had no idea why but sure wasn’t complaining.
Hoe Viet is an excellent place — sad it doesn’t get more customers, but great for those of us who love the food there as they have tables aplenty.
@85 — Phil G — Good point about the ‘dealer blocking in your neighbour with illegal parking and coming under physical threat on asking him to move.
If only local authorities realised that by enforcing the criminal law against pavement parking they would shrink the comfort zone of local ganstas, pimps and dealers.
Morleys hotwings are good but they’re better in E Dulwich. There’s a bit of scum in there, but watching a junkie eat always gives me hope.
KFC is for those looking to really treat themselves.
Eastern Tree? Haven’t tried it but will have a look. Thanks!
New Loong Kee is really good, right on the edge of Camberwell / Walworth Rd border badlands.
Phil G
The food at the Eastern Tree is different from HV & NLK as it is South Vietnamese — the cuisine, culture & dialect is distinct from the North.
The North run things now -
bit like the Scots running England ?hahahaha but at least they don’t make Haggis compulsory & Edinburgh Scots accents BBC English.
Thanks sg — as sincere an apology as one can expect from Royal Mail.
You can’t equally disdain community councils and groups trying then become excited by their efforts.
And if someone like me who has worked very hard, given a lot of time and money and believes in Camberwell (including efforts towards those things you got all excited about from Wingfield), cannot seek support from others allegedly doing the same, then I guess you are right. Those like me who would like to see change ought to shut up and leave.
That strategy is working for TNT.
This is good! We are getting somewhere!
The Hermit’s Cave was buzzing on Saturday night.
They do need to crack down on girls smoking ciggies in the toilet though.
One older lady was quite dismayed by this abuse of the only cubicle.
The offender was really pretty though and wearing very short shorts so I have mixed feelings and can understand why she was reluctant to smoke outside.
To monopolise the only cubicle does seem a little heartless.
Anyone else see this girl with short white shorts?
That was like a Bob Dylan song.
There is a barmaid in the Funky Munky who is a bleached blonde from Mongolia. She is a student. Asked of what, the answer is, appropriately -
Beauty.
lol@benhill.
I’ll give you a second go: I used to work for pricewaterhousecoopers and so I now look forward to your disparaging comments about consultants, bring them on
I’ve never distained community councils and groups, best of luck to them in trying. I used to work for southwark council many many years ago and know just how difficult it can be to make changes happen.
I admire Ian W for taking the time to come over and meet with us and for continuing to show willingness to help us. He’s the first councillor I met since that atrocious Vickie woman of some time ago, and he’s restored my faith in local politics.
To those who read this blog, if you need your local councillor’s help, email them. Thats what we did and we were very impressed by their responses. All 3 councillors from Brunswick ward contcted us individually.
All I’m saying is that I’m a realist. I like Camberwell just as it is. Sure, there are things I’d like to see fixed (hence why we contacted Ian in the first place) but they’re not bad enough to make me want to leave the place.
Yes I would probably also like any changes that community councils managed to get done but I don’t have the time to help them. I don’t believe I’m unique.
Wingfield & Co. are really on the ball, on the case, I agree. I like Camberwell just as it is — sg, great thing to say, not just realistic but recognising reality for what it is.
Trevor Philips today in the Indie:
“After a generation of neglect, some poorer communities, where many migrants settle, have to cope with under-resourced and unmodernised schools, housing and transport infrastructure. It would be arrogant to dismiss the feelings of people to whom the daily frictions of diversity are more apparent than its long-term benefits.”
Those that say they like Camberwell just as it is tend to live in a certain part of it; centre and south, else 9–5 ‘n’ drive. And to that extent, the argument holds steady — let’s just be clear where we’re talking about.
You can’t do everything, and at least Wingfield et al do something, with their limited powers. But only the Executive can effect true change.
But I can say with cast iron certainty that those who find the status quo across SE5 acceptable have never traded with the general public in North/North-West Camberwell, week in and week out.
This has actually been useful.
Reg, Mark and Co., stop. Just stop. There is nothing you can do. There is nothing you have accomplished. Just stop, all the talk, all the analysis, and disband the Forum. Admit it, after two years it hasn’t done anything. The one before it didn’t do anything and I’m understanding why now.
Why? Because, and I’m being serious not sarcastic, as I sort of knew, there is far more people of similar ilk that like Camberwell just like it is. Don’t change it. Sg and Dagmar and even Peter a I think fit that bill.
It really is helpful to hear you all admit that. I think my vision for what I want to see is at odds with the majority of people here. Knowing that makes it easier to ponder a move.
Love it or leave it makes perfect sense now.
Mark and Peter and this site and the Doves and the Forum have helped me to find my Camberwell. You may not have found yours Benhill but that doesn’t mean they have failed.
I am going to live here for ever– that is at least in part down to the people you are disparaging.
There are others though — including the good ladies at King’s who delivered our babies, the staff at their excellent nursery, the council workers who maintain all the brilliant parks we play in, the team that run the lido, and the staff of the many bars and restaurants we enjoy frequenting from ED to Bellenden to Church Street and beyond.
There is a busy crossroads and some tramps who get p:ssed. It’s a problem but there is more to Camberwell than that.
I’m sorry that you don’t like it. Good luck with your move.
You misrepresent my position, Benhill.
I don’t think all is fine and nothing needs to change; but neither do I think we’re living in some god-forsaken hell-hole that needs to be razed.
I think what we have here is a good solid base to build on, but we need to improve the facilities all around the area — not just the hub, but further out on the spokes as well.
Spokes? Recently I was pedalling home from work at night in the rain through the Aylesbury Estate, on Thurlow Road, in dreaded North Camberwell, north of north Camberwell, almost as awful, they say, as Walworth.
So swirly had the Elephant roundabout been, so drear was the night, I stopped at the Kurdish-ish shop near the English Martyrs Church. Anyone familiar with the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales will know the suffering and temptation I was enduring. Anyway, I fear I ramble.
I bought a can of Bison Beer — Zubr, European bison, the heaviest land animal in Europe — I fear I ramble — also called a “wisent”, related to the North American bison, often called buffalo, but which are only distantly related to water buffalo or African buffalo — so the buffalo of the great plains are really bison, the great sustainers of the plains Indians… Indian? Moravia, the bisons’ beer is from the Moravian region of Poland, perhaps the beer paradise garden of the world.
The half litre can had two bisons’ heads on it, I think, and was 6% abv or maybe 9, I wasn’t sure.
I am not taking the pee, it transformed my view of the Aylesbury — the bison’s piss — strong as an ox, full of bison’s hormones — EPO, testosterone, steroids, hops — the night black, the flashing blue lights, the yellow and orange light shining on the wet road. “Bring it on,“I said in the argot of the zeitgeist, “North Cambwerwell, I am ready for yew.”
Benhill — I find your position in part refreshing. Believe me, I am frustrated with the lack of progress.
We need to renew the Forum committee, as about have of them are deadweight passengers, good-willing or not. But whilst I respect your involvement in the Camberwell Forum, unless you have been involved in this one you should keep your criticism circumspect, and also remember that the part of Camberwell most express satisfaction with is not the part with the most serious problems.
There is another Castle.
There is another Camberwell.
Half.
Dagmar, in addition to florid and multi-meta-layered prose, I also think you make a very useful contribution to social debate. One of the most positive here.
“… spewing flowery adjectives…pedalling furiously…”
Moving off topic here. Food is more important.
@bunbohue will try Eastern Tree for sure.
Guess you’ve tried many of the Kingsland Rd places but Cay Tre on Old St was q special. Went there for my birthday. Even Giles Coren of the Times agrees in his review.
I realise that I’ve come in late in this ‘discussion’ and have never posted a comment before even though this I occasionally have a look at this site. This time however, i feel so saddened by some of your comments (good to know that good old fashioned bigotry and class snobbery is still alive and kicking in Camberwell — well South Camberwell at least! ) that I feel compelled to respond. As a young black women, I am probably in the minority here and no doubt I might be viewed as ‘scum’ by some of you who would rather the area be cleansed to make way for the well-heeled white folks who live over the hill. But let’s clarify a few points. I have lived in London for over 20 years, 10 of these have been spent in Camberwell. Before this I lived in lots of nice predominately, white middle-class areas: Notting Hill (a place many of you seem to view through rose-tinted spectacles), Battersea (the nice bit between the commons, not the shabby estates of the North), Pimlico and Crouch End. And guess what ? there’s crime there too ! In each area I lived there were high profile murders that occurred, and wealthly areas are often rich picking for burglars. I also have to add that in many of these nice areas, I was often told that jobs that I’d applied for in shops or restaurants had been filled, when this clearly wasn’t the case, I was often followed around shops by some concerned shopowner who would instantly assume that I’d come in to steal. I was told that flats for rent were taken when they weren’t and have had police stop and search my sister’s car when all we were doing was trying to move house in the evening. And no. This isn’t a sob story, I’m certainly not paranoid and I’m definitely not embracing victimhood. But I didn’t hate end up assuming that all whites were racist, or feel that I could never live in these areas again. I put it down to a few sad ignorant people I had the misfortune to meet. Sadly, it seems that many of you feel that you can’t do the same. Yes, there’s gun crime in Camberwell and it’s a problem but it’s carried out by a minority of young people (both black and white) who rather sadly choose the wrong role models to look up to. And anyway, what exactly is black on black crime ? The vast majority of drinkers in Camberwell are white — does this mean we have a white alcoholic problem in the area ? Most paedophile crimes (according to the media) seem to be committed by white males. Is this a predominately white problem ? Can this stereotyping get any more ridiculous ?
Unfortunately, we now live in a climate where the level of weaponry has increased from knives to guns (if guns had been so easily available back in the 60s than they are now, do you really think mods and rockers would have thought twice about using them ?) but demonising all young black boys does nothing to help the problem. How many young black men do you all know ? The ones I’ve met from both the Heygate and Aylesbury are just young people with the same dreams and aspirations as the rest of us — but just with less privilege. Most of the ‘poor african immigrants’ that you refer to are often ordinary people holding down two or three jobs to try to improve their lives — they’re not the sad, downtrodden, disenfranchised people that some of you seem to assume. And yes, Camberwell could do with more money, cleaner streets and better shops but it certainly ain’t a slum — has anyone ever been to a real slum ? Go to a slum in a developing country and you cerrtainly would think twice about labelling this area. Oh and by the way, I have friends who live in posh Islington who still face problems trying to find decent secondary schools for their kids. It’s seems that all the wealthy residents send their kids to private schools instead of trying the improve the ones that already exist. So these schools are left to deteriorate– this is often the problem with gentrification. The rich move in wanting to capitalise on affordable period property but are reluctant to mix with the people who already live there, the result is two parallel cultures — Peckham rye (or posh peckham) is a prime example. African and West Indian culture is never going to be as quiet and reserved as white middle-class culture and there’s no reason why it should be — but it doesn’t have to be frightening. A lot of you just seem to want to turn Camberwell into another Clapham/Notting Hill/East Dulwich full of yummy mummys and nice, quiet, professional middle-class people as if this is a lifestyle that we should all be aspiring to. I happen to work in an environment which is predominately full of Oxbridge grads and have to put up with ignorant and thinly veiled racist comments about how terrible areas of Camberwell, Peckham and Brixton are — when I challenge them I find out that most have never even visited. But to get this from people who actually live here ??? And Benhill — where are your friends who won’t visit from ? Surrey ? Hampshire ?
If you want to improve things there’s plenty you could do instead of waiting for the council to sort things out. There are many great mentoring schemes that are desperate for older, intelligent people to join and make a difference to some of these kid’s lives. A lot of black kids in the area don’t know or mix with any white people and I know for a fact that these schemes are keen for more white men to sign up. This is how barriers get broken down. If anyone is interested and wants more details, please let me know. I know someone who is currently training to do this and he finds it really interesting.
And Mark, to be honest I think the real reason that some people are reluctant to visit your pub is not due to its location, it’s down to the staff. I have heard this from a number of people (some of whom live in Camberwell, others used to live in the area). I don’t know whether the staff feel that it’s cool to be rude and stand-offish but I’ve often felt offended by how I’ve been served on a number of occasions when I’ve visited. I’ve even witnessed a very calm, level-headed friend have a heated argument with one of the bar staff, because he was so rude. They just don’t seem to care. The last time I was in there I was served a flat spritzer on two occasions. When I complained I was told there was nothing wrong with it. Thankfully the bar manager who there that night was more sympathetic and agreed to give me a fresh drink. Anyway, still love the film nights…
My point is don’t give up on Camberwell, it’s got plenty of potential, but if you don’t want to live with us ethnics well… maybe you need to downsize to Dulwich.
Wow… what a way to make your first post! Welcome, bavent; I hope you stick around as a reader and keep commenting.
I agree witht he majority of your comments Bavent but I can’t believe the spritzers are flat in the Sun and Doves.
Mark do you need to get a new cannister for your soda stream?
bavent — I read that in awe!. Great post
bevant, What a superb post.
Wow! Did you write that after watching the film?
Bavent, thank you for so much common sense.
Bevant — I enjoyed your post; a breath of fresh air. I agree with a lot of what you say.
Here are my thoughts on the very few points where I was not certain of agreement. Although others will also disagree some of your points, you will tend to find a void of silence here in between the veiled racism which you referred to (a small minority) and fulsome and unmitigated praise (the majority) of your remarks, on the subjects of cultural and racial prejudice. It tends to be rainbow nation or rivers of blood.
I do think improving NEW (North East & West) Camberwell necessitates articulating the things that are wrong with it, and that this need not necessarily be a criticism of any specific ethnic community.
I think the various African cultures alone, let alone Caribbean, contain such massive variations that it is not proper to speak of “white” and “black” culture in Camberwell. Indeed, more significant tensions and disconnects arguably exist between elements of African and Caribbean communities, than white and African. It is precisely this cultural variation that gives the lie to “black on black” being “nothing to do with the white community”. Also, the failure to mix tends to be based on wealth. Poor mix with poor, whilst the rich drive everywhere and build walls.
I also believe that any ethnic minority community should retain its identity, habits etc. but should respect the law, including those laws against pavement parking, litter and noise pollution. There should be no positive discrimination through non-enforcement in recognition of “cultural values”. This is not to say that I believe white people commit less of these crimes.
However, because of the higher concentration of ethnic minority communities in NEW Camberwell, the relevant local authorities commit less money to enforce basic laws. And I believe this to be indirect racial discrimination under the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000, under which all local authorities have a duty to promote racial equality, let alone not indirectly discriminate. No such case, incidentally, has yet been brought against a public authority, which reflects the lack of seriousness with which the general issue is taken. The anti-social behaviour which thereby results impacts more heavily on the very ethnic minority communities who become characterised by it, although few of them engage in it.
I like your suggestion of mentoring. Such schemes are a definite part of the solution, as you describe, and we should not wait for the local authorities to act. But we should give them every encouragement and incentive to do so that we can possibly imagine.
In short, I echo Peter’s and others’ welcomes. It may interest you to know that several of the SE5 Forum committee will shortly be standing down in time for the AGM, and would probably be very interested to have you as a representative, as I certainly would.
bavent, I mean.
Spot on Reg. Though I\‘m not sure we should punish the \‘rich\’ for \‘building walls and driving cars\’ so much. I think those pockets have grown out of frustration and it will take a lot to talk them down. A closed road up in the Grove is a first step toward another wall going up. I suspect they\‘ll fight to keep it. I don\‘t agree with it, but I don\‘t blame them. Many worked very hard to restore a beautiful landmark and keep up some huge gardens, only to have a constant stream of booming cars tossing rubbish out. You are bordering on punishing those who have worked hard and have invested heavily in maintaining a beautiful community. At some point, I want my hard graf to enhance the community, not just suffer for those who have no respect, no pride and just trash the place.
Bevant, I agree with most of what you say too. I\‘m on record for many years as saying the Afro Caribbean community here is one of our biggest opportunities to create a unique community. My \‘rainbow\’ street is spectacular. I know most all of them, they come from all over and they are good people, good neighbours. And yes, many have black teens and I have gotten to know them. A few years back, one came to work with me in the City for a few weeks in the summer and I worked with him on getting into his preferred University. He\‘s now in a trainee programme with a bank. Further, I fund and support when I can the Camberwell Choir at St Giles. It is an outstanding way to bring the next generation together and music is a wonderful tool. They will grow up not caring about silly things like skin colour.
For all those who shouted \‘hear hear\’ to your post, I\‘m keen to hear them answer your valid questions. How many young black men (people) do you know? Do you mentor either formally or informally? What are you actively doing in Camberwell to break down barriers?
I\‘ve long fought against us becoming another Clapham or such. And again, I think our diversity is what could make us very different. But increasingly, there is just plain rudeness and threatening behaviour that makes the daily live grim. I\‘m not even talking about serious crime, though it is on the agenda across the UK. As stated clearly, I think we have challenges of a large immigrant population. Here, they just happen to be from African/Caribbean origins. And we have challenges unique to those communities. To say I, or anyone else here, means we don\‘t want that kind around here is way off the mark. I\‘m just saying let\‘s put it on the table and deal with it, in a way that is inclusive and not territorial. We must all take responsibility and not play victim.
Now I\‘ll ask you a few question Bevant, if I may. Groups past and present have always struggled to engage minority (arguably not minority in Camberwell) groups. We end up with Forums, Societies and the like full of white, mostly middle class. And we have tried. New Forum people, am I right for you all? Groups have struggled to engage the whole of Camberwell and proactively push things forward. What can we do?
hi, and good to hear positive and probing feedback — reg and benhill — you make valid points and i agree, the problems are much more complex than sweeping generalisations, but I didn’t want to write a book just a shortish message ! But I’d also like to make it clear that these are my opinions and my mine alone. I don’t profess to speak for every black person who lives in Camberwell. I’m sure others will think differently. I know that it’s a problem getting people involved — from my limited experience, people will get involved with things that directly affect them i.e. housing etc and lobby the council for things that might affect their road or estate or whatever, but nothing more. I;ve had a look on the SE5 forum website and thought about coming to a meeting — but to be honest, I’ve often wondered exactly what you do, whether you have any political or persuasive power, or whether it’s more of a social forum — perhaps this is the problem. It doesn’t feel compulsory. I’d really like to respond in more detail to this but it’s late and sleep is calling, I’ll try again over the weekend.
Grills etc. in Camberwell are definitely new and fresh. Not much of the old Rumeli is there apart from the old grill equipment. Having said that tried I the Moroccan chicken kebab with rice once and the Mongolian barbecue also (from lamb chops).…..and it’s a nice alternative to the old traditional Turkish kebabs
i googled grills etc se5 and stumbled upon this interesting thread. and it makes me laugh that the comment above me is also regarding grills etc!
all my friends love camberwell when they visit. When they tell others where i live they often make comments about south london involving the word ‘dodgy’ which i find hilarious as mostly they’re non london / a bit racist idiots who heard something on the news. it makes me sad when it’s londoners saying these things about camberwell though. i really find it has quite a casual charm and i won’t be moving anywhere else soon. it’s sad that people can’t see beyond camberwell green. obviously there are problems or this thread wouldn’t exist and i’m not one to glaze over everything with an argument of ‘niceness’ but i really do love camberwell. everyone i know at university lives in camden/tufnell park/euston and other NW areas which is horrible to me.
i think another reason people like to slag camberwell off is that it hasn’t got a tube station — they don’t realise how well connected it is. honestly, my housemate goes to goldsmiths and his friends won’t bother to visit. and we all know new cross is much crapper than camberwell.
also WE HAVE A NANDO’S. which now has halloumi on the menu.
does anyone have a number for Ben at Bar Story
Bar Story is 0207–635 6643.
Bavent (post no. 114 above), where are you? Lucas Gardens was great today, burgeoning. The SLG show has made it to the top 5 art shows in London in today’s Independent.