Doing the Windsor walk. Oi!
Written by Peter | Filed under Development, Eating & Drinking, Events, Politics
Alan Dale’s fixation on interest in property prices has led to a rather welcome discovery: the fine terrace of houses along Windsor Walk is up for sale. They’re too good to be standing empty and, along with the approved plans for the old Mary Datchelor school, form part of a little property revolution in that area of South Camberwell (or North East Dulwich, as the well-heeled new residents could be wont to call it).
The new inhabitants of Windsor Walk will hopefully still have the train line to London Bridge, as the online petition closes in on 1,000 signatories. The public consultation closes in a few days, so if you haven’t signed it (and you agree with its premise) please go ahead and do so. I’m not sure who set the petition up, but I hope they remember to send it to Network Rail. I emailed the lovely Ms Harman about the topic, but have received no reply.
The BBC were in town at the weekend, with their RaW roadshow; there are some photographs available here. It looks like it’s an attempt to improve child literacy, which is an estimable aim. I’m not a child and I’m already literate, so I didn’t go.
And Channel 4 were around recently also, filming Dispatches: Immigrants: The Inconvenient Truth, which purported to be a fair study of the economic impact of immigration. There were interviews with some of the area’s Somali community (at least I assume so; there were some establishing shots of Walworth Road), and also focused on Nigerian staff at King’s. It was pretty interesting, although focussing purely on the economic impact doesn’t tell the whole story.
Onto a more pressing matter: food. The wife & I went out for dinner on Friday, to the Dark Horse. It was pretty good; not as good as we’ve had there before, but certainly not bad. I can’t escape the feeling that it’s a quid or two overpriced, however. Anyway, it was very busy, as was The Grove — which is something I’ve never seen before.
Rumour has it that Angels & Gypsies will open this month. Can it really be true?
I have already signed the petition, Tessa Jowell has been asking poeple to respond here is the extract from her e-newsletter
South London Line
I would also urge you to add you own comments on the “Threat to the South London Line” at: http://www.tessajowell.net/your_say?TopicId=8fb6db9f-3c9f-5b84-f5ee-faf4d6b310c5 and make a contribution to the consultation by email to: southlondon.rus@networkrail.co.uk
Not that I have any particular interest in defending Harriet Harman, but in the interests of fairness the issue is also detailed on the front page of her website, where she also includes a link to the petition.
http://www.harrietharman.org/
Who did start the petition. Was it you, Alan Dale?
I moved to Forest Hill this weekend people — cleaner streets, just as many interesting/pleasant places to eat and drink, and cheaper too. fewer street drinkers, my girlfriend hasn’t been aggressively propositioned on the streets for the last 72 hours, my journey into work was quicker, there were fewer rude obese people edged me into a corner of a bus, chucking chicken bones on the pavement and pi$$ing up my doorway. my money bought me a nicer flat for the same money without the omnipresent sound of buses and sirens, and it already feels like home. A home that has not yet had anyone shot to death on its doorstep with a Mac10 automatic pistol.
I found living in Camberwell to be an interesting experiment, and an OK place to live for two years.. But at the end of the day there are nicer places to be, without losing your soul. Living in North Camberwell is not the same as the ‘North/East Dulwich borders’/Grove Lane end. It’s an uncivilised place to be. And I’m glad to be out of there.
No-one has to survive this warzone. You all have choices. And for those lucky enough to have bought in Camberwell will have made a pretty packet too. Living, in London of all places, is not about waiting for an area to improve. It is about your choices. As someone said, if you don’t like it, move out. so i did.
Wookie signing off.
For the record it wasn’t me who found the Windsor Walk stuff it was an SE5 forum user called rceb
http://www.se5forum.org/forum/index.php?topic=94.msg3229#msg3229
Similarly it wasn’t me that started the petition.
It was an ED forum user called. Quaywe.
But it is great that we are all getting involved. Never underestimate the power of online gossip and idle banter to escalate into a full blwon campaign…
No offence Wookie but you are on the wrong forum.
It’s a new dawn in SE5. The detractors can move to Forest Hill for all I care..
Forest Hill is nice though. Some really lush 60s houses with big rooms and integral garages. No! Mustn’t be tempted. New dawn. New day…
I’ve been to Dark Horse a few times. It’s just not as good as it thinks it is. If you want good food of that ilk around here you need to go to East Dulwich.
Regen would make you walk, probably in a hair shirt but you’d still have better food.
Wookie — you are right to draw the distinction between NEW Camberwell and Sogree Camberwell. It is the foremost distinction to draw in discussing SE5 policy and funding needs.
I would say improvements are more possible in NEW Camberwell than previously, but nothing substantive has actually happened yet as far as I can see. The possibilities issue from increased political engagement, and the emergence of a chattering class. It is possible that this class will effect improvements if all adopt a quid pro quo approach to taking an interest in the problems of other areas of SE5.
Sogree Camberwell has improved significantly over the last five years even only taking into account the Champion Hill Estate improvements, which used to have a much bigger criminal overspill to the Grove, than now.
Olly — you’re right to instinctively go to the best place for food. Try the Bear — it’s had a few good reviews here — haven’t been myself.
From where I am it is easier to get to Waterloo and sup on the majestic offerings of EV Restaurant, behind Southwark tube station. I cannot cycle there at the moment as my frame has snapped due to metal fatigue at the sheer mileage covered.
Such is the breadth of Camberwell.
Don’t understand the New Camberwell and Sogree thing. Please define.
It seems that they have resumed work on that massive block in North Camberwell that was supposed to be nice flats but ground to a halt at the sub structure. Know the one I mean?
TommyD had some pictures of it on his site. I’ll have a look for them.
Things are deffo on the up throughout Cambo!
Sogree — South of green!
New — North of green?
1. South and the (Camberwell) Green;
2. North East & West Camberwell;
I think they’re the most useful distinctions.
I’m slightly confused about these locations!
As my teachers used to say at school — Define your terms
Looking at the googlemap at http://tinyurl.com/33su2f Denamrk Hill/Camberwell Road is clearly the ‘backbone’ of Camberwell.
So North East Camberwell is the area including Burgess Park up to Albany Road
And North West Camberwell is the area between Camberwell Road and Camberwell New Road
West Camberwell is the area between Coldharbour Lane and Camberwell New Road and East Camberwell the area around Peckham Road?
And South West Camberwell the area around Kings, Ruskin Park to the edge of the SE5 postcode and South East is Grove Lane as park as Dog Kennel Hill
@Mumu — Well, I can’t give you grid references! It’s just the way I think about Camberwell.
Your last paragraph is Sogree, roughly, including the Green, except that part where a pensioner was pistol-whipped on the steps of the magistrate’s court — that counts as North Camberwell.
Everything else is NEW Camberwell. North, East and West together. The parts that not only Heineken, but the Westminster Travel Group, Living Streets, Neighbourhood Renewal and sundry other community organisations don’t reach.
‘Special Brew and ‘Super — that’s a different question altogether.
SE5 geography is a difficult one to hold in mind.
The SE5 Forum has a large map of SE5 that should have the n s e w and so on of the area marked up on it. It should be made into a web viewable format.
Let the wookie win.
I prefer to view Camberwell in its entirity. Take the very good with the not really that bad.
Returning to one of our (well some people at least) favourite topics have you seen the house for sale at Kerfield Place — http://www.foxtons.co.uk/property-for-sale-in-camberwell/chpk0321112
£349,000!
Its daylight robbery I should add
My head is spinning.
That’s insanely expensive. A few years ago i looked at a house very like that on Love Walk — part of the same estate i think — nice enough houses but i remember thinking the bedrooms were a little on the small side so i didn’t rent it.
The price of this one makes my head spin:
http://www.ludlowthompson.com/flat-for-sale-in-the-piano-factory/4650
Wouldn’t it be awful if the person buying/selling these saw this blog?!
The one in Kerfield is a Selborne Village bargain in my mind. Houses in the village have sold for more.
It’s got a garden and a garage too.
Garages in Camberwell are worth upwards of £50k.
The other once is high spec loft living. Of course it’s expensive.
I think local property is starting to trade for something close to a fair price.
The one at the Piano Factory is listed as
“Camberwell/Dulwich” — it is on the Peckham Road!
Just how far can Dulwich extend its borders these days?
@ alan
“The other once is high spec loft living. Of course it’s expensive.”
Dude, are you an estate agent? you didn’t even get that from the description on the site.
If it is loft living it’s loft living on the ground and first floor of a flat out the back on the Peckham Road.. not Manhattan.
To me half a mil for for a flat between Peckham and Camberwell is only fair in the relative sense of the word i.e everything else is so bleedin’ expensive.
I am not an estate agent –it’s just a hobby.
I have no interest in living in Manhattan.
Stop underrating our endz.
What is Selborne Village all about? Is it ex-council or just poor design? Does it mask old bomb damage? It’s the dividing line between glorious Camberwell and the rot. Awful.
It seems that Selborne Village is a term invented by estate agents to describe the modern housing near to Somerfield. I guess its what estate agents do to make an area more desirable? I dont know why it is termed that beyond it containing Selborne Road, I wonder what the inhabitants of Selborne Village in Hampshire (http://selborne.parish.hants.gov.uk/ )think about it? And is there any connection to SE5 Selborne Road?
It seems estate agents cant help themselves: I’ve heard housing around Ruskin Park being described as Ruskin Village and those of us living near Myatts Field are described as living on the Minet estate (which to be fair is a statement of fact: the land was owned by Mr Minet who developed an estate of private housing to rent)
Jumping back a few posts, can I speak up on behalf of the Dark Horse? You see, I’m a big fan.
I think it’s the best food in Camberwell by some degree, and certainly a better deal than anything you’d get in Dulwich.
OK, perhaps the dining area can be a tad quiet and low on atmosphere, and for some reason they seem to change waiting staff on a daily, if not hourly, basis.
But the chef — a Sr. Juarez, the menu tell us — seems very gifted to me. I’ve eaten far less skillfully prepared food for considerably more money in much flashier establishments elsewhere. My main worry about the Dark Horse is that either the chef will leave or it could close.
I think in all the hurrah about house prices everyone has missed the priceless joke at post 16. A cracker!
To further add to the housing excitement I spotted this just of Coldharbour Lane for just shy of half a million.
http://snipurl.com/1sn4y
Went to No 22 in Herne Hill for yummy tapas last night and am awaititng the opening on Angels And Gypsies with egar anticaption…
I also like the Dark Horse it is Selborne Village’s local.
JohnnyM — that’s my home. You are entitled to your opinion but I’m saddened that you have such a low opinion of the village.
It is a Wates development built in 1982. It is mostly 2 bed ‘cottages’ but there are some flats at the Western end of Allendale Close and there are a couple of detached homes at the entrance to Allendale on Love Walk.
Most of the ‘cottages’ have garages and rear gardens with separate rear access. I actually think that the layout is great as there are lots of nooks and crannies providing privacy and there are a number of mature trees that predate the development.
The one way system around Daneville Road ensures that there is no through traffic and consequently the streets are quiet enough for the local kids to play out on their bikes.
Whilst I accept that there are prettier houses in the area I think that the Village is a functional and a very pleasant environment in which to live.
No offence taken by the way!
Selbourne village seems to work on several levels. It feels good, walking around it, it’s well structured and laid out, it feels like it’s not in a densely populated urban area, which is quite an achievement for any property developer to reach. The houses are just a little, er, little but so what it everything feels good. Kids being able to play outside around here is a pretty major asset in itself.
Alan, a few years ago Allendale (ha!) Close was named as one of the most dangerous streets in Camberwell because of the poor lighting and street layout. Has that all been sorted out now?
The street layout isn’t changing but we certainly got a couple of new street lamps in the passage through to Love Walk.
There are lots of passages which I suppose are dangerous in that people could hide and jump out but I haven’t heard of anything and certainly haven’t been the victim of anything.
The 2 bed houses aren’t big but both bedrooms accommodate a double bed and a few have knocked through the kitchen to form open plan living spaces which feel a bit more airy.
If they were bigger then they’d be that bit more expensive.
I forgot about the three beds that form the border between the estate and Somerfield. They are a bit bigger and have integrated garages.
There’s more to the Village than initially meets the eye but I accept that it’s not everyone’s pint of bitter.
Seems like the approporiate time and juncture to report back on Wookies RIBA organised seminar — “this house belieives palnners should stop social engineering”. Interesting debate which correctly identified that all architecture / urban design includes an element of social engineering — whether it’s “creating sustainable communities” or putting restaurants and cafes on the ground floor of office buildings. However the conclusion seemed to be this house beleives planners should stop social engineering and let architects get on with it because they would be so much better at it!
Thanks to Wookie for the invite is he’s still logging on from Forest Hill.
@35 Came across a ‘50s guide to British Architecture the other week. One passage said something to the effect: “in the 19th Century, architects concentrated on the aesthetic, and left the functional such as housing to the engineers. Contemporary architects have now overcome this misplaced snobbery and are merging the two. We have every reason to be optimistic about the future”.
How I laughed, considering the crap functionalist dross we get served up in NEW C.
According to Mary Boast’s Story of Camberwell, the Selbourne estate was built on what had been the grounds of Denmark Hill Grammar School. I’ve got an ordnance survey map dated 1871 which shows the school. The school closed in 1873, and the ordnance survey map of 1913 shows that the area between Love Walk and Daneville Road was covered in densely-packed housing. It appears the council originally planned to build an estate there, but sold it to Wates instead.
I’ve always thought it was a very attractive estate. I’ve noticed that houses get a fair amount of rubbish dumped in their front gardens, especially the side facing Somerfield and the car park. But we get rubbish thrown over our garden walls, so this isn’t exclusively a Selbourne problem!
On another subject entirely, has anyone been watching Last Chance Kids on C 4 this week, about a primary school in Dagenham where the pupils — especially white boys — had a very low literacy level? The headmistress introduced a reading programme to raise standards.
Some of the children there have reminded me so much of the kids on the Glebe Estate whom I see every day. Not that I know much about their literacy, but the behaviour is the same — aggressive, running around in the streets at all times of the day and well into late evening, language that would make a sailor blush. But I’m fond of them — they are (usually) so ready to respond if someone makes an effort to reach them.
Saw the trailer. Shocking stats but once the problem is identified then there is hope.
I know what you mean about local urchins. There is a gaggle of kids who play along Vicarage Grove. They are rough around the edges but they always say hello and make a fuss of the baby.
Often kids could teach their parents a thing or two about being pleasant. The kids of course have the benefit of good role models in the form of school teachers when they aren’t truanting that is. The parents lack positive influences..
Nice to hear positive comments about Selborne and lovely to get a bit of history. I was told by an estate agent that it was a commercial estate prior to the development..
Quite so Carole — the impotent anger we feel across the board.
I was actually quite glad that c4 chose not to present this in a gloating or ‘daily mail’ fashion — apart from the kids what struck me anew was how hard the teachers, the head, benjamin zaphania, and ruth miskin all work to get their results.
And the all too easy ‘blame the parents’ answer seemed no to work either; the parents [usually the mums] seeemed either committed to helping or just disempowered themselves.
Drew Mishmash
Maybe we should produce a definetive map of Camberwell based on all the locations of 24 Hour off licenses within the SE5 Postcode — Who knows it might even make Southwark/Lambeth council realise the magnitude of their disastrous town centre management…
An inspired idea, eusebiovic. Except we should include all off-licence premises, irrespective of hours.
Surely no-one will seriously debate that adequate supply of demand for alcohol at 2.30 a.m. is in the public interest?
We will need an ultra-high resolution printer, of industrial specification, to squeeze in all the dots without them overlapping.
‘Surely no-one will seriously debate that adequate supply of demand for alcohol at 2.30 a.m. is in the public interest?’
Au contraire mon frere. I regularly finish off a big night with some late night takeaway booze.
And more importantly people who work unsociable hours should be able to buy booze as and when.
I do think a map might be a good idea and agree that there are perhaps too many off licenses but I still think ‘adequate supply’ is essential. By definition anything less would be inadequate. And we can’t have that!
Or maybe we should approach it from the other way — produce a map of non licensed premises in Camberwell?!
Actually, the percentage of retail premises which sell alcohol in SE5 would be a very useful — and shocking — statistic.
Alan — I can sympathise with not wanting the night’s merriments to draw to a close. But can’t you order in advance? Even I have a spare Eau de Vie, Baileys, Beer and a Rose in reserve, and I consume a fraction of a unit a week.
Maybe thats a job for the forum ?
It would be a good way to get press coverage too — in my experience there is nothing like a survey or research ot get the headlines: shock survey reveals 80% of shops in Camberwell are off licences kind of thing
I’m not against places where you can obtain alcohol late at night (or indeed alcohol itself) but do we really need 30+ (that’s a conservative estimate) in SE5? — Surely less than half the number which already exist would more than suffice the demand and in the long-term create an environment where businesses and enterprise would be willing to take a chance and invest — thus creating a better organized and more prosperous town centre in future…
Alan — Sometimes, especially in a diverse Inner-London community like Camberwell the unregulated free-market model has to be slightly adapted to correct the negative social impact that it’s lack of responsibility creates — this does not mean that a person who subscribes to that view is anti-capitalistic or a pure undiluted traditional leftie. Like I said a more attractive town centre with a greater variety of shops and services would generate more money in the middle to long term so in fact it is in our interests to do something to effect this change…
Regeneguru — I’m glad you like the map idea, sometimes the only way to make people realise there is a problem is if the raw reality of the situation is clearly displayed in a format which is unarguable and easy to understand…
I live around Loughborough Junction so I would be happy compiling the information needed from this part of the SE5 postcode, up to Myatt’s Field and back down to the Green or more if needed…
Totally off topic but hope you don’t mind -
a group of residents in Elmington Road and Samsom Street met last week with Ian Wingfield, Sandra Rule and the T&RA chap from Southwark Council and the upshot is that we are going to try and set up a Brunswick Park Tenants and Residents Association.
We are planning on having a big public meeting for folks who might be interested in joining, in early December.
The idea is to include all streets that surround Brunswick Park, but not estates as they already have their own TAs.
If anyone wants to find out more, please drop me an email. We are looking for representatives from other streets to help us band together around issues such as anti social behaviour, urban planning, parking and so on.
when mr and mr Buk went for an early morning bike ride at 7am last sunday morning, we were actually surprised that there wasn’t an off-licence selling booze in SE5 at that time.
Even the Food and Wine near Somerfields wouldn’t hook us up. It wasn’t like that in 2003 for sure, when the guys who worked there then told me “We will sell you beer 24 hours a day, 365 days a year”. The offys that are selling you grog at twat-o-clock in the morning are paying someone some serious money to turn a blind eye I’ve always thought.
Fascinating to read the posts on Selbourne Village. I, it was we then, moved into one of the new houses almost 24 years to the day. There are a few downsides but mostly it’s a good place to live. There are some three bedded houses, not just the ones mentioned by Alan Dale (they’re town houses with an additional floor), one of which I live in; the gardens are large, and some have garages attached. The neighbours are good, many of us are the originals so we know one another very well and we’ve seen children grow up and stay here, often with their own families.
I like the “new” Grove but the Dark House hasn’t impressed. A friend and neighbour had a lousy time in there last Christmas, so bad that we haven’t been back.
A few of us remember the Sun and Dove as it was, an old fashioned boozer with a pleasant “garden”. It went slowly down hill until it was taken over, now, a much better place but on the wrong side of Denmark Hill.
I’m all for doing something about the places with a booze licence; Adams in Coldharbour Lane would be the first to go if I was a magistrate. There was, and still is, a perfectly good off-licence at the Temple of Bacchus which doesn’t sell to the druggies who congregate outside Nandos.
sg — Beckyr over on SE5 Forum will want to know about your association. She’s doing a list of community associations in the SE5 area. Look for Topic called BRAINSTORM LIST under “General Discussion”.
Good luck to you.
Carole — thanks for the info, once again CamberwellOnline Blog proves to be a fountain of information
@48 — eusebiovic — I would suggest coming along to the next committee meeting of SE5 Forum so that we can work out how to distribute this work based on the Camberwell Map work that has already been done. The date will be published on that site soon, hopefully.
At the same time, we could collect evidence on the number of money shops (cheque cashing and exhorbitant sub-prime insurance and mortgage arrangers) that characterise NEW Camberwell, as they are prime indicators of deprivation which could lead to new funding approval and strategic interest in Camberwell overall.
I see there is a new Camberwell squat — called the Squatters Arms on the site of the Bricklayers Arms at 123 Southampton Way — they have a myspace page http://groups.myspace.com/squattersarms
They almost burned the place down last week; when I came past on Thursday there were three fire engines around the place and some very sheepish-looking crusties.
@54 — Regenuguru — Not only that but I also think that these low-level businesses are another lamentable side effect of allowing the free market to dictate town centre policy. Primarily, the lack of willingness by landlords who have probably never even visited the area in years to maintain the fabric of their buildings to an acceptable level. This means keeping the facades clean, free from vegetation and regularly decorated to a high standard — This would also involve suitable shop fascias which follow some kind of uniform rather than the garishly illuminated plastic ones which are usually clumsily installed at the expense of the antique mouldings and ironwork which are in character with some of the older housing stock.
Also an abundance of floral displays and sensitive landscaping can make a huge difference too and are relitively inexpensive.
I think the entire environment of the town centre can be subtely changed using these tried and tested techniques (yes, i also appreciate some elements of traditional conservatism!)
I don’t think that civic pride is a dirty word or outmoded concept — It can only help to create a more varied selection of shops and services which eventually makes our town centre a more pleasurable place to spend time in, rather than the stressful rat-run it currently is…
Better management will also eventually mean a more prosperous town centre too, so some of the more one-eyed short-termist free marketeers might be wise to consider that carefully as well…
eusebiovic — keep an eye on the Forum site for the next meeting date.
I don’t think anyone here would disagree with what you say, but there is a view that a certain recalcitrant anti-social element in Camberwell is incorrigible, and that they will always prevent such an approach succeeding. Good money after bad. Even NGOs and local authorities subscribe to it, but that view can be overcome.
Most accept that there should be zero tolerance for anti-social behaviour (including improper car use). I believe they also agree that recent low quality functionalist residential building over converted amenities has gone too far, creating future “climate slums” where nobody will want to live due to the energy bills and tax implications (Camberwell Road, Wyndham Road, Denmark Road, So’ton Way, take yer pick).
In short, local is better, and an emergency diversion of funds towards zero tolerance of those whose behaviour threatens localist culture is imperative.
I encourage as many as possible to attend committee meetings as observers and initiate and follow debate on the Forum site.
The last meeting is listed as 20 June and the last one with minutes 18 April. A scan of minutes show not much has really happened. What’s up?
JohnnyM — there have been recent meetings, but the website is in a bit of a mess from a technical point of view, and it is difficult to post minutes.
I think the Forum needs a change of web designer; the first was good value
but the latest — not really, in my opinion.
I will make sure the details of the next committee meeting, when decided, are posted as a discussion thread at least.
The more interest & the more scrutiny, the Forum has, the better.
does the Forum have anyone updating basic information on local events at the moment? I know there was a problem with finding an administrator earlier in the year, which doesn’t seem to have been solved
@Jubilee: The events calendar on the chat forum pages are open for any registered user to create an event. If there’s an event you want to add, here’s how:
http://www.se5forum.org/forum/index.php?topic=15.0
As for the main site, I don’t know who’s responsible for it at the moment.
The Bill was being filmed in Burgess Park a few weeks ago, again.
The mushrooms are simply burgeoning this year even in the most urban corners of our town.
Did anyone go to Hippy Mother Club’s Friday 26th October event at Dulwich Hamlet FC?
SE5 Forum:
Still no administrator, seemingly impossible to find through local network, very recently beginning to get input and support from SAVO and imminently about to have direct structural input from consultants.
Getting a strong Forum underway which is not a single issue vehicle in SE5 is, like everything else locally, a complicated and slow process.
Interesting article about pre-war Peckham health centre.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0„2202177,00.html
Dagmar — I made it to the Hippy Mother Club — very entertaining all round!
anyone else there?
What was the vibe? What kind of do is it? Sounds? Sounda great?
Dulwich Hamlet FC — yet more evidence at the kind of good hearted initiatives (one in a list of many) that the good folk of our local club allow their facilities to be used for…
Like I said before, it’s only £7 a match and it’s more than worth it for all the good work that they do in the local community
Anybody catch this tonight on BBC London news? It happened in Burgess Park.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7070798.stm
I noticed tonight that there was a new Witness Appeal sign outside Burgess Park (where Walworth Road meets Albany Road) for a “Serious Sexual Assault”.
My wife stopped running in Burgess Park last year after a couple of incidents involving local youths. These were young boys, but it was still aggressive (literally sticks and stones).
I find it very strange that female– dominated households raise male kids to have such a derogatory attitude towards women.
But then again, I didn’t do Sociology at school, so what do I know.
@JohnnyM:
One can only assume the judge empathised with the assailant. That makes sense of the nonsense.
cut their goolies off! of course & a nice course of hormone replacement therapy they’ll be singing like Beyonce!
I run in and cycle through Burgess and have never experinced anything like this. But I know a number of cyclists have been attacked in the park and major incidents like this seem to punctuate the park’s year. The place isn’t safe after dark unfortunately, but is fine during daylight hours. I suspect saftey will be a major feature emerging out of the current consultation. Key to making it safer is encouraging greater use, improving the lighting and perhaps having the thing patrolled more. I suppose CCTV could have a deterrent affect, but one is always loathe to suggesst that in a public park. The levelling of the Aylesbury might help for a while too.
I thinking lighting is the main issue, as you mentioned. The park patrol people are generally quite visible and helpful.
Also, it should be pointed out that it’s not just women joggers who get abuse. Two kids were beaten up by a gang in the park in broad daylight a few weeks ago.
It’s a shame because I find the park to be mostly quite vibrant and lively, especially on Saturdays and Sundays when all the footie players are out and about.
Sex crime offenders are as difficult to treat as alcoholics. What a load of bollocks it is, though, that a spell in Sierra Leone can’t be offered as some sort of treatment for offenders like this fine fellow.
What a brave woman — the chap’s next victim may not be so strong in every way.
Eusebio, I wholeheartedly agree about the Hamlet. Chelsea is here and there, Millwall is here and there, Charlton is Charltony, but the Hamlet is here and where young players get real experience.
Did anyone go to the Camberwell Grove railway bridge meeting tonight?
I did. over a hundred people, cheering, booing and getting v. passioate. weapons grade nimbyism from camberwell grove residents was widely derided. sweary lollipop lady too. upshot: bridge opens march next year.
I think if we got a Bakerloo Line Extension from Elephant to Camberwell Green, with an intermediate stop at Burgess Park — this would be the greatest catalyst for a properly thought out re-landscaping of the entire park — It would be a much cheaper option than the proposed tram (I do like the tram idea a lot but it’s expensive and will take years to arrive) and is the logical thing to do — I can’t think of anywhere else in London where such a project would be as beneficial…
Reckon I’ll go to the Hermit’s Cave for last orders tonight.
Where’s everyone else going?
I’ve just cracked one of those big San Miguel bottles at my desk. BB King booming out. Might stay here! Or go for a run in Burgess Park.
Bakerloo Line, if only eusebiovic. Trouble is if enough people laugh patronisingly and inform us “knowingly” (sorry about the “s Peter) that “it will never happen” then it won’t. It would be wonderful to have the Bakerloo, the East London and the Tram (and half the number of buses). Two out of the three would be fab.
I’m not of the belief that Camberwell will turn to Hades if nothing as significant as this happens, but for those that think things have got better over the last few years, remember the whole country has benefitted from the prolonged economic boom and VERY few places haven’t seen improvements. Many have seen a much greater upturn in fortunes than Camberwell.
With all that’s going on around us I think we’re becoming an anonymous inner city island. Nothing wrong in that maybe, but there’s a clear benefit in people being able to get to Camberwell’s bits and bobs quickly and reliably. Just as there is in people being able to get out. Economic/employment opportunities etc. Anyone else see this? http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23418549-details/A+lost+generation+of+Neets/article.do
Does not surprise me in the least.
Those big San Miguel bottles are great.
The Neet assessment is, indeed, bleak.
There is a bleak but cheeky exhibition in the basement of the NPG about Newham young.
AM A SOMBODY COZ GOD DONT MAKE NOBODYS.
That was good.
This weekend I went to The Canning, Dulwich Hamlet Football Club, The Hermit’s Cave, The Canning again, Ganapati and The Montpelier.
It’s good round here isn’t it?
I went to the Fireworks at Brockwell Park — they were very good and nothing like the crowded nightmare that Clapham always is.
Saturday we ventured out at about 9.30pm to collect a takeaway from Lamoon and i was struck by how quiet Camberwell was.
Hannah. Camberwell has become a ghost town on Saturday nights… apart from the Silver Buckle of course. still as busy as ever.
Little trader’s anecdote “I swear the shop is doing half what it was ten years ago. I’m serious, really, 50% less than ten years ago”. My own certain knowledge of this is that our income has dropped 200K in the same time.
That’s Camberwell for you.
If we go out of a weekend, we either a) leave Camberwell entirely or b) go out ‘locally’ — and by ‘locally’ I mean to Lordship Lane. I used to think Mary Datchelor would bring new life, but I reckon they’ll go out ‘locally’ to East Dulwich too. Sorry. But we can only take so much of the circus.
Will everyone please stop putting Camberwell down? How will anyone be attracted to come and live in the area if the first thing that they come across when they search the Internet to find out about it is the moans and complaints of the residents on this forum. Most of us love this area for its diversity and independent spirit. I agree that there are plenty of issues that need addressing and Mark’s assessments above are a concern, but there are encouraging new enterprises setting up in the area (eg The Bear, Caravaggio) and we should get behind them rather than abandoning them for the stripped pine and brushed chrome over the hill.
Mark, it might be tempting to blame the difficulties you are experiencing in the Sun and Doves on tough trading conditions in Camberwell but I don’t think that is the whole picture.
The Canning was rammed on Saturday night. It seems to get more popular every time I go. It was also busy serving roasts on Sunday.
The Hermit’s Cave is also doing a really good trade. Granted the Buckle does well later on but it’s not that busy early. The implication that only downmarket outlets can do well is a complete phallacy.
The Grove is getting progressively busier of late –it’s still not rammed but like the Dark Horse it is definitely beginning to establish itself.
If the rise of these alternative outlets is having a detrimental impact on the Sun and Doves then that is a shame but I would argue that increased competition is good for Camberwell as a whole.
Camberwell is great. There is loads to do. There is perhaps room for a few more restaurants but I wouldn’t open a pub here because there is too much high quality competition.
JohnnyM — by all means go out along Lordship Lane. Fill your boots.
You don’t need inverted commas– that is local. You should also include Bellenden as there are some great local amenities there.
You can also get the train to Clapham High St in 5 minutes from Denmark Hill. There’s a lots to do there too.
In spite of all of these options I tend to spend my spare time and disposable income in SE5 because I prefer it. You are allowed to prefer Lordship Lane. That’s fine.
I don’t share Matt’s sentiment that people should stay in Camberwell out of loyalty. I think they should stay because it’s better.
The main reason i don’t go out very much in Camberwell is that I am the only one from my friendship group who lives here, thus if I want to get them down here to go to something, then more often than not I am faced with the prospect of walking home on my own afterwards, and frankly i’m scared.
I’m not asking for a solution as I would really love to socialise more in Camberwell as i think it has a lot to offer but i feel like i want to justify why it doesn’t see more of me.
No Alan. Sadly, our ‘local’ is KFC, Siver Buckle and a Green that’s a prime television set for a reality show featuring yob Britain, gangsta turf wars and estate neighbours from hell.
I can’t comment on your street or neighbours but I can reassure you that there are plenty of nice streets in Camberwell.
Certainly sounds like you live close to the Hermit’s Cave though. Not all bad.
Other than that I can’t really empathise because I love KFC and regularly end up in the Silver Buckle. Strokes and folks I suppose.
Still, living in Camberwell is voluntary. I wouldn’t live here if I didn’t love it…
i think the area is ace, After renting in Fitzrovia, Westbourne park, and Waterloo i’ve bought here.. and love it. Its a proper honest mix of people and its not sickly like lordship lane.
@JohnnyM: Funky Munky, Hermits, Dark Horse & Grove are only two or three minutes walk from KFC & the Buckle; they provide a pretty good variety of venue, so I find it hard to believe that you don’t have any options for going out.
Personally I side with Alan on this; I go out locally because I like to. I’ve got an excellent variety of pubs within a 10–15 minute walk of my house. Supporting local businesses is important too, but I wouldn’t spend my money in places I didn’t like, purely out of loyalty.
BTW, I went to Southwark Park last night to watch the fireworks. Anyone who complains about Camberwell should try a trip to Bermondsey and see how bad things could be.
Good Point Alan. I go out in Camberwell because I like it too.
To each his own. Yes Peter they are nice places, but surrounded by gloom. And often not very busy. We like the feel of Lordship Lane for local outings and the ability to skip from place to place depending on our mood. Great options all within a few feet of each other and getting to and fro doesn’t feel like visiting the set of a reality television show highlighting gangsta turf wars, estate neighbour nightmares and yob nights out.
As for choosing to live here, well it isn’t so easy is it? Probably is for us. We’re biding our time like many others we know. We’ll sell up when we can. Our estate agent advised us as much when we moved in. It’s the Camberwell shuffle. Of course the majority of folks living here don’t have that option. They are stuck and like it or not, they also don’t make it much nicer for the minority of us who are just passing through.
Peter — I was at the Southwark Park fireworks too, and I am so pleased you feel the same way.
My friends who are reluctant to visit Camberwell because “it’s dodgy” (their words not mine) live in Bermondsey, in a location which requires me to walk from the tube past at least 5 very intimidating housing estates.
Where’s the justice in that!
I really like living in Camberwell, and I agree with Matt (pt 86) about the negative comments. When we were looking for somewhere to live in fact the then positive comments on SE5 forum and this were partly what made us decide to look here! I’m glad we did.
Whilst I’m on here, the jazz in the Prince of Wales on Sunday afternoon and Thursday evenings is excellent, if that’s anyone’s cup of tea.
Whilst there is no justice in that I think you are right to rise above their ignorance and enjoy both areas to the full.
Glad to hear it Tanera.
Well done Peter. Your site has no doubt produced significant inflationary pressure in the local housing market.
Thanks!
@JohhnyM: The people who are ‘stuck here’ don’t make it nice for the people who are here to sell up quick and move on? My heart bleeds.
If you want to make it nice, try staying here and investing something in the area.
I think you’re being harsh Peter.
If you were motivated to move here by the availability of property to buy and had never previously lived in such a multi-cultural community you may find the culture clash overwhelming or intimidating.
I’d hope people would see beyond that and embrace the diversity but I would understand people who didn’t.
I don’t think Johnny M wants to make it ‘nice’ — I think he wants it to be ‘nice’. And I’m afraid his definition of ‘nice’ is not where we are.
Whilst there is no reason for you to feel sorry for JohnnyM I think you have to accept that his reaction is by no means unusual. In fat its a decidely normal reaction. No offence JohnnyM!
Alan — two corrections. (1) Living in Camberwell is not entirely voluntary. Those in social housing are often put in cheap, low-ceilinged accommodation in the middle of NEW Camberwell, where crime is high, amenities are few, enforcement is yet scarcer and there’s no strategy to speak of.
(2) You need to find a NEW Camberwell comparator for the Sun & Doves, to address the trading difficulties faced by such businesses. The Canning ain’t it.
In fairness, most of this flurry of debate has only touched on SoGree Camberwell so far (roughly, Buckle to Canning).
Matt — it seems you take the view that if more of the right kind (perhaps with money to spend) were attracted to Camberwell, things would gradually improve, so we should “stop moaning”. I believe that representing our grievances regularly and accurately to TfL and Southwark will secure a change of strategy and funding which will make the effect of new moneyed residents negligible by comparison. You should also clarify whether your interests lie mainly in Sogreen Camberwell, which has few of the problems of NEW Camberwell.
Other posters have clarified that “North Camberwell is a place I drive through — that’s it” and I’d appreciate more honesty of that kind so we can identify the ghetto mongers amongst us.
Like all areas in London there are good days and bad days and if you live in an inner city area with a lot of diverse people there are going to be culture clashes and difficulties but also plenty of rewards.
In the ten years i’ve lived in London and had great experiences and bad experiences in every place i’ve lived.
what upsets me is that for the last 20 years or longer inner cities have not been invested in and left to rot becuase the prevailing opinion is that as soo as you are 30 or want to have a family you leave for the suburbs — that hasn’t done our inner cities any good at all and now we are reaping the rewards of indifference and under investment. — it’s not just Camberwell it’s everywhere.
Not sure Reg.
(1) Even council tenants have some say over where they live. There are lots of empty council properties up north.
(2) The S&D has always been unique in your ‘NEW Camberwell’. If it’s doing worse now than historically it is still conceivable that is due to competition form outside your defined areas. If you insist on a NEW Camberwell comparison then the Black Sheep is also doing well.
The Canning and the Phoenix are however particularly relevant to the plight of the Doves because they compete for hospital trade.
Furthermore there was the implication that trade is being lost to East Dulwich so if it’s actually being lost to South Camberwell then that changes the debate.
Reg, that is absolutely not what I meant, but I can see how you could read it that way. The diversity of the area is one of its strengths and certainly one of the reasons that I moved here a few years ago. An injection of money from the council would be very welcome but Camberwell is clearly not a priority for them. I live in NEW Camberwell and the council’s attitude to the area is writ large here in the vast expanses of undeveloped land at the top of Benhill Road (the road changes name here, but I forget what to). For some reason Southwark would rather begin new housing projects in Peckham and Elephant rather than finishing the job they have started here. So where will the investment come from if not the council?
It’s true, Peter can get a temper when you don’t agree. Be careful here
How I can improve things I don’t know. Seems all people here do is offer conjecture and argue amongst themselves. Know any group actually doing something? I might just join.
you could put window boxes up, that’s my attitude, if people realise how nice a place can look then maybe they might start taking more care of their surroundings and stop dropping litter and letting their dogs crap all over the pavement.
it’s a nice thought, if a tad simplistic!!!
You wouldn’t join JohnnyM and neither would I.
I like conjecture and arguments and I’m not alone.
That said people do read these boards. If one person moves to Camberwell because you said how great it was then you have made a difference. If that person then goes on to really effect change in the area then you are partially responsible.
It’s easy to post and whilst it may not be obviously beneficial I honestly believe its better than nothing.
That said if you do think it’s pointless and don’t enjoy it then I don’t know why we are conversing…
Matt — I wasn’t casting aspersions. But in my view we can’t complain loudly enough if we are to get the strategic attention we need from TfL and Southwark.
I don’t think Camberwell necessarily needs more “regeneration” money at this stage.
We are underenforced, in planning and policy. Illegal ugly buildings, pavement parking and dangerous driving, other anti-social behaviour, excessive street drinking and crimes of violence.
What’s needed are rules which are enforced. And if you want to call it regeneration, you can call it that.
Next, incentives to occupy empty buildings designated as amenities, but which are becoming derelict and contributing towards a criminal atmosphere of a neglected area. So no business rates for the first year for such buildings, guaranteed free short stay parking, and discretionary shop front grants subject to conformity to local rules on conservation.
The Council is not making any money on those buildings anyway, so there’s no loss, only community gain. However, if you want to call it subsidy, you can call it that.
Agreed Genfink. Make your house look nice and hope the neighbours follow suit. That’s all that is happening in East Dulwich.. and its bordering on revolutionary.
Alan & Genfink — garden pride can have a very positive effect.
And an avalanche one, if locals can be persuaded that local authorities will take a serious interest in Camberwell as a destination.
Otherwise, they may continue to worry about being the next burglary-whilst-y’re in — a speciality of NEW Camberwell, and seek to make their frontages appear grotty and not worth ransacking.
Caravaggio is open and looks wonderful!
Alan. I’m not imagining what’s going on. I’ve ben here twelve years. I know the owners of the other pubs too. None of them is happy with trade here now. No shopkepers I know are happy with the trade either. Camberwell was busier ten years ago. Not just the Sun and Doves. Camberwell. Cambwerwell. Camberwell. Was busier.
Well I have a neighbour who has totally made a pig’s ear of their front garden — no doubt because the council are considering making our area a controlled parking zone, when there is no need for it.
The houses along here are late Victorian and have limited space at the front — in fact the only reason said neighbours car fits is because it’s an eco-friendly electric car and very small and compact — otherwise they would be in trouble, any other car would overhang the pavement
I mean what a complete buffoon — they drive an eco-friendly car yet tarmac over a front-garden to park the vehicle in front of their window!
It doesn’t get much more moronic than that…something which I feared would happen as soon as the controlled parking zone talk started flying around…
I do think Camberwell has potential though. This will not be realised by free market economics. If it were to be realised through that route it woul have happened by now.
Regeneguru is right, it means rules, enforcement, and an overview of development in Camberwell that’s coordinated to provide balance across the area.
SE5 has more latent resources than most neighbourhoods but none is being used to benefit the area looking at the needs of the whole.
Myatt’s Field Park Project and Burgess Park Trust are exciting local developments. They are happening in isolation with nothing to join the huge gaps in between.
What happens to Camberwell Baths, the library, Jonos, the police station and grounds, St George, Camberwell Green, the Magistrates’ Courts, Southwark Town Hall, when the council decamps to higher ground at Elephant & Castle (they will), with Butterfly Walk and its relatively new freeholders, is pivotal to a bright future for Camberwell.
None of what will happen to these major sites is being looked at in the context of knowing the other sites will be changing soonish. NOTHING is being done to establish what really should happen to these sites in relation to each other to benefit local people and businesses, the community. It’s all just a sorry, unrelenting, sludge of patchwork development that throws good money after bad and serves no one well.
And of course I forgot to mention Lambeth.
LAMBETH
Loughborough Junction
regeneguru @110 — Spot on, sentiments which I share entirely
I have lived in North Camberwell (on an estate) as a kid, moved away for a few years and have in recent years returned to Camberwell and live in what can be considered one of the nicer more leafy parts of SE5 — so perhaps I am in a position to acurately pass comment on some of the previous posts…
One thing I’ve always loved about this area is the mix of people and the untapped, unfulfilled potential that exists on all levels — I think that well designed social housing, creates and fosters good behaviour — there are many examples of precisely this type of architecture in and around Camberwell (usually brick built) and they are still beautifully doing the job that they were designed to do some 50,60,70 and in some cases 100 years on, from their initial construction.
However, we also have many examples of the very worst kind of social housing which was built in the 60’s 70’s onwards — which was never designed with a strong commitment to humanity and longevity as the aforementioned properties were — these concrete monstrosities were merely built to benefit the construction companies and shareholders of unregulated free market speculators…and in many cases were pushed through against better judgement by corrupt town hall councillors — but this wasn’t just Camberwell — this is a lamentable chapter in the recent history of the United Kingdom, which has caused a lot of regret amongst much of the nation ever since.
The only problem being is that in certain inner city areas — there is a high concentration of some of the more ill-conceived projects — and our part of London has suffered more than most in this particular respect…Yes it was heavily bombed in WW2 but many perfectly habitable streets were bulldozed too…
For example: Kitson Road and Sansom Street were typical of many perfectly habitable streets in Camberwell which were demolished in the 60’s and onwards…
My basic point — Bad architecture and poor enviromental planning causes pockets of poverty — It’s far too easy to blame the ills of this world on the people who find themselves at the sharpest end of the social spectrum — it’s far more complicated and depressing than that…
I was at the Grove Chapel meeting about the railway bridge. The most vociferous speakers wanted the Grove trashed. To us daytime Camberwell people, the past year of traffic-free Grove has made it the most splendid and marvellous part of Camberwell.
All areas should be as traffic-free.
So beware the localists. They are the same as every localist everywhere — anything new or foreign, anything that’s nice or unusual, must be trashed.
They are local people for local people.
PS: that Brunswick white S reg Bedford camper van is fab since its restoration — well done Pete’s site!
Rot. no-one wants camberwell grove trashed. they want it to be what it has been for the last 300 years: open. why? because while certainly “unusual”, the traffic dispersed to surrounding roads hasn’t been particularly “nice”, including for daytime people.
@118 — eusebiovic rightly points out the false economy of cheap ‘n’ tall housebuilding without taking into account local communities needs. Those who think regeneration consists purely in piledriving in trucks of new and moneyed residents to deprived areas are either fools or knaves.
@119 — Dagmar, is that a deliberate paradox (against localists but for traffic-free areas?). Not sure whether this is some kind of pith.
@120 — Florian, there should (as Dagmar says) ideally be no rat runs at all, including Lyndhurst and Denmark Road/Flodden Road/County Grove. There should be a meeting to decide the fate of all the rat runs simultaneously around and about Camberwell. That would be a ding-donger.
Following the closure of all rat runs and the outlawing of local residents’ on-street long-term storage of cars, I demand the reopening of Camberwell Rail Station with freight facilities included, and my pint of milk and newspaper delivered by rickshaw.
I’ve been lurking for a while but had to post to say that Caravaggio is amazing. I went for lunch on Wednesday and had really tasty pasta for less than a fiver. The food is better than the dark horse and they also have better ‘contemporary’ wallpaper. The waiters are all very nice and it feels like it should cost a lot more than it does. I went back today as I want to work my way through the whole menu. PLEASE let it not close down.
Can I just say how dissatisfied we’ve been with local Councillor Alison McGovern. Mr Wingfield has helped us in the past and is okay but Ms McGovern should not be re-elected.
I feel better! Thank you.
Has anyone been into Grills Etc. (formerly Rumeli’s)? It’s absolutely rubbish. What’s the deal? I’m just going to open up a chip shop, sell crap food and get away with it?
Well you won’t. Gone within a year, I’d say. And good riddance.
The Castle has been dead the last two times I’ve been in there. Anyone else noticed this, or have I just been unlucky?
Nice to see The Bear picking up. Also noticed that the landlord of Hermit’s Cave is now charging admittance for high-profile footie matches. £6 in, but you get two drinks’ vouchers. I guess it’s to stop the skanks who buy a coke and sit there for two hours. Seemed to work, actually.
Went into Funky Munky a few weeks ago and was shocked to see that the demographic has changed from Camberwell art students to the 35+ mob. Where have the art students gone, then? New Cross?
I’ve had the fish & chips in the Grove and it was surprisingly delicious.
Went to the Fox on the Hill when I was on a come-down. Lovely clientele (families, geezers, Eastern Europeans, Irishmen reminiscing about Tipperary, etc.) and the cheapest pint of Heineken in London — £2.40!!!
Here endeth the Camberwell Report.
Rot? What is this, Florian? Billy Bunter? There was a distinct note of anti-posh at the Grove Chapel meeting. Some people were spittling and slavering about nimbyism. There were rivers of spittle. We must be mad.
Cllr Wingfield introduced himself by greeting the assembled with “Or should I say, dearly beloved?” which alienated all the atheists right away because it is they above all who believe in fair play and not dissing the believers in their own chapel.
That executive councillor with Eurovision Song Contest haircut, who said he didn’t really know where he was, he was hilarious — he almost looked forward to being lynched, so keen he was for attention.
Councillor Peter John seemed to have turned up without his inner Paul, George and Ringo.
The most trustworthy councillor was Sandra Rhule who just said her name, so you could hear it, unlike the other mumblers.
Everyone wants the bridge rebuilt — it could take just a weekend, said the very reasonable surveyor from Network Rail — except Network Rail who “own” it.
Florian, the meeting was much more interesting than you let on. Whack. Yarroo!
at least Camberwell doesn’t have a Foxtons.
Went to East Dulwich on Friday night and was horrified. What on earth have they done. The local residents must be appalled at what’s happened to their once villagey road.
The new-look Foxtons are hilarious! No desks, no prices in the window, just mood lighting and a soft-drinks bar.
@Peter
If you have to ask…
yes, very bizarre.
8pm on a Friday night and there’s one guy sat in Foxton’s behind the “bar”. Not a soul to be seen anywhere else in the place. But all lights blazing away. Was he the security guard, perhaps?
Guarding the thousand foot plasma tv that was up on the wall, showing Sky News to any passers by??
Could be handy for when the cricket starts, though.
sg i suspect your question in 126 is simply an expresion of shock; however if it is a genuine interrogative the asnwer is–
took their eye off the town planning ball [while counting their unrealised equity lucre]
re: Foxtons on Lordship Lane
I have also recently observed their new premises in East Dulwich
Ostentatious, is an understatement — Think of a 6ft 7inches man in a pair of pink flared cordroy trousers with a chest as hairy as a sasquatch and wearing a medalion bigger than the gong from the Rank Organization whilst tottering down the road in a pair of white cuban heeled boots…
That’s how organically the new Foxtons in East Dulwich blends in with the rest of the street…