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Welcome to the Camberwell Online blog, a place for free and spirited exchange on anything with even a tangential connection to the South-East London district.
Booze and the working class
Published by Peter | Filed under Eating & Drinking, History
Southwark Lambeth council are considering introducing a ’saturation zone’ to Clapham, to limit the number of new bars or clubs - and a similar scheme could be imposed on Camberwell. I would suggest that Camberwell’s problems lie not with the number of bars and clubs, but the number of off-licences, and would welcome a scheme to regulate them. I would also welcome a scheme to stop off-sales outside licensing hours. I would also welcome a scheme to give me millions of pounds.
I’ve changed my route to work now, and cycle past Evelina Mansions on New Church Road. I was always intrigued by the plaque about the “Four Per Cent Industrial Dwellings Company Ltd“, and did a quick search to look up their origins; turns out the company is still in existence, now known as IDS Ltd. They manage over 1,300 properties across London, and were:
established as the Four Per Cent Dwellings Company in 1885 by a group of Jewish philanthropists who hoped to relieve the overcrowding in homes in the East End of London.
No doubt they were originally for workers in the factories along the canal, but now they are pretty exclusive homes, from what I can see.
Finally, I’ve decided I want to join the library in Camberwell again, but I remembered that I didn’t return a book I borrowed 10 years or so ago. Do you think they have a record of that? And how much is 10 years of late fees?
November 14th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Lambeth Council.
Southwark will do so for Camberwell soon I seem to recall.
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November 14th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
But… Clapham is in Lambeth!
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November 14th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
D’oh! Corrected, thanks.
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November 14th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Ahh JohnnyM got there before me!
The problem is any saturation Zone imposed on Camberwell is that it would hit the old issue of people in two boroughs so a Southwark imposed Saturation Zone would only cover about 3/4 of Camberwell.
I also think Peter is right Camberwell does not suffer form too many on licenses (eg pubs and bars) but too many off liceses and a Saturation Zone could further damage Camberwell by discouraging people from opening good pubs, bars and resturants here as a saturation zone makes it very difficlt to gain new licenses or alterations to existing ones - essentially the burden of proof that the new premises will not contribute to increased anti social behaviour in the area lie with the license applicant in saturation zones whereas normally it lies with the police and local authority.
Alos, if we accept Camberwell main problems arise form off licenses rather than bars and pubs a Cumulative impact policy would not help as DCMS Guidance on the subject states that it would not normally be acceptable for a Cumulative Impact policy to be adopted on the basis of concentration of shops, stores or supermarkets selling alcohol for consumption off the premises.
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November 14th, 2007 at 2:52 pm
Peter - you make several interesting points in your intro. It seems that IDS are primarily a Jewish Housing Association (from their website, at least), but that they can no longer offer housing exclusively to Jewish people. It may be that the original “4%” name was the proportion of Jewish people in Britain when they were set up and that this name was adopted to avoid attracting anti-semitic attention. I’m only guessing on this.
As to the licensing laws - I’m really confused on what these are now. I’ve seen people buying White Lightning and the like at 1000 on a Sunday morning in newsagents in Waterloo on several occasions. I’m not sure whether that’s legal or not, but I know I don’t like witnessing it.
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November 14th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Mushtimushta - Since the introduction of the Licensing Act 2003 in November 2005 it is possible to apply to sell alcohol at any time - even 24 hours a day if you want to - so it’s highly likely that what you are seeing is perfectly legal (but of course it may not be!!)
By the way i have to know all this as part of my job - i don’t spend my evenings reading up on licensing law for fun!!!
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November 14th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Did you hear that, everyone? I’ve made several interesting points! I’ll remember this day for a long time to come.
According to these figures, there are only 910 supermarkets/shops in the whole country which are licensed to sell alcohol 24 hours, so what you saw in Waterloo may be legal, but is by no means certainly so.
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November 14th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
I always thought that the 4% figure on Evelina Mansions was the return that investors would get on their investment in the venture - below the market rate that could probably be achieved by investing in property but still better than a savings account.
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November 14th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
The housing is pre-welfare state social housing financed by great banker Rothschild.
The historian Niall Ferguson mentioned Evelina Mansions in his book the House of Rothschild - accessible online through amazon. The housing was developed for poor Jewish people who had arrived as refugees following persecution in Eastern Europe. Interesting it says that by 1911 the Evelina Mansions dwellings had no Jewish tenants
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November 14th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Peter
I’m afraid the scheme to give you millions of pounds has been used to write off the millions of pounds in library late charges; life stinks don’t it?
And you are wise to join the library; Camberwell will probably never have a bookshop again.
Cheery mood today!
Drew
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November 14th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
I reckon the number of off licences is probably demand driven. Closing them down probably won’t change the number of drunks here and won’t make it that much more difficult to find booze. It might make the remaining off licences more profitable.
I’ve just had my car broken into for the second time this year. Add this to the theft of my bike and my wife having her handbag stolen and I’m getting pretty tired of Camberwell’s much lauded ‘edginess and vibrancy’.
Sorry, not in the cheeriest mood myself today.
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November 14th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Hear hear Stuart.
The Rothschilds don’t have these problems.
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November 15th, 2007 at 12:17 am
I have done a quick search with my eyebrow tweezers and this is Peter’s first ever mention of the word “Jewish” on this site, although, as we know, Spring Song by Mendelsohn was organically called Camberwell Green - and he was Jewish.
On the back, big, double-door of St Giles Church, there are fabulous carvings of Jewish folks - Adam, Eve, etc., with no clothes on and larking about - it is a warm and wonderful sight to see in a Christian church, begod.
At this time of year, the light floods through Ruskin’s east window - the predominant bright light colour is blue, as besuits SE5 to this day!
The vicar, a good chap with his eyes on the ball at all times, reminded me and our baby that the churchyard has a real prescence because people have - are there still - been buried there since about 1100 AD.
The church is open every Wednesday morning - it is like a spaceship - wonderful.
Hannah, you are more lovely than you will ever, ever know, with your detailed, accurate knowledge and girly exclamation marks!!!
I would vote myself that the Tigris supermarket in the bosom of the Heygate, selling 6 half-litre cans of fine, Polish, very strong beer for 5 quid, really is the Garden of Eden for booze, Mesopotamia, that fabulous triangle of paradisaical pleasure, that SATURATION ZONE beyond a wise man’s wildest dreams, crazy old Hebrew guy that he is, getting his secretary to write it all down, as he makes it up as he goes along, ah, the Song of Solomon, and so on, she scribbles away in her short skirt, changing a word here and there, to make it even better.
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November 15th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Either ban White Lightning or don’t but it’s gross no matter what time of the day it’s sold. It’s massively judgemental to say it’s ok to buy it at 4pm but not at 10am. Total nonsense. Not everyone takes the morning train and works 9-5. Sheena and Dolly.
As if the problem is off-licenses. The problem is nutters and alchoholics.
My all time favourite famous Jew is Onan who invented the withdrawal method and was killed for it then labelled a wanker for all time.
Either him or Larry David.
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:02 am
@Alan 14
I concede to your argument and grudgingly accept that my earlier comment was judgemental.
I’ve quoted Dorothy Parker on this site before, but did you know that she called her pet parrot Onan - because he used to spill his seed on the ground! I am not making this stuff up!
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:12 am
And here is the extract from Niall Ferguson’s book that Mumu mentions above. Thanks for the pointer, Mumu:
“One criticism sometimes advanced by critics of Rothschild philanthropy was that, far from promoting assimilation, the Industrial Dwellings Company merely encouraged the creation of new ghettos. Thus it has been pointed out that 95 per cent of the tenants in the Charlotte de Rothschild Buildings were Jews. But this is misleading. At the Directors’ meeting of February 18, 1890, it was agreed that “as far as possible, the proportion of Christian tenants to Jewish tenants should be from 33 to 40 per cent” in the company’s Brady Street flats. In 1899 space was reserved in the company’s East Ham property for the construction of non-Jewish places of worship “in order that the estate should in no way form a ‘Ghetto.’” Though the Charlotte de Rothschild Buildings were mainly occupied by Jewish families, a third of the tenants in the Navarino Manions in Stoke Newington Buildings were not, according to figures for 1904. The company’s Camberwell estate (Evelina Mansions) had no Jewish tenants at all in 1911.”
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:12 am
Alan is right about the problem being people. It’s about some people’s behaviour. The next problem is how to deal with those people and their behaviour effectively, so they are not a problem to the rest of us.
I know a few Jews. Onan was so ahead of his time. Perhaps he should have been more discrete about his logical discovery of natural contraception, or did one of his missuses spill the, er, beans?
Nick George is St Giles’ vicar. He is as Dagmar says. And so he needs to be - being here.
The saturation policy has been discussed here before. Like all proposals it will not help Camberwell unless implemented pragmatically with an end vision in sight and, as Peter and Hannah describe, could well be counter productive if not applied sensibly.
Nothing in this SE5 area is applied with a grand vision in mind. Everything is piecemeal. Public money is spent in Camberwell as a palliative. It’s done in a despairing way by Council Officers because there’s no other way of doing it. There are no really effective lines of communication with the local population or traders, there’s no way of finding out what people want for their area. When they are reached out to the information that comes back is fragmented and not joined up – a reflection of the pressures of the area. There’s no one to put these fragments together and develop a long term plan. There’s no guide as to how money needs to be spent, no vision, no development plan, no planning outline that means anything at all for the long term shape of the area… for what Camberwell could be.
The improvements money spent this way have negligible long term environmental impact. Whenever money is spent this way a little local improvement is tangible for a while, part of an area feels brighter, cleaner, less oppressive than it did, for a while, but soon gets buried and lost layered beneath the piles of rubbish, dirt, grime, human detritus that accumulate through a perennial continuing general lack of care for the streets. The populace bumbles along feeling like maybe things are getting better when they are not. And as time goes by and the memory of that incremental step forward fades, people grumble again that the area felt like it was moving on but when you think about it, it hasn’t really has it?
Huge amounts of public money is wasted across Camberwell like this, just have a look around. As no one in ‘authority’ has the wherewithal, or remit to pull it together, it just goes on and on and on, it should be our job to make sure that future money spent on Camberwell is used to join the gaps instead of peppering the area with a brighter corner here or an improved bit of signage there that has no relation or bearing to anything else around it.
What if the whole of Denmark Hill were to be repaved? It’s going to happen, it’s a lot of money being spent in Camberwell (it won’t be paved by contractors who actually know how to lay paving of course. Oh, no no, that went out about thirty years ago). Will spending a lot of cash on the pavement in Denmark Hill actually improve the area? What kind of paving will make things better here? Think about it.
What else needs to happen to make it worth while even bothering to repave Denmark Hill?
The November issue of Southwark Life landed on the doormat recently:
‘Your ideas wanted’
How would you make the borough a better place or improve a council service? If you live or work in Southwark, the council’s ideas factory wants to hear from you. It’s your opportunity to share your ideas with decision-makers. How would you improve services and places, make better use of existing resources or bring in outside ones?
The deadline for suggestions is November 19. Those whose isead are selected will be invited to the town happ to explorte them with executive members and service directors. For information, call 020 7525 7518, email ideasfactory@southwark.gov.uk or go to http://www.southwark.gov.uk /ideasfactory to submit your idea online.’
So there’s a few days left – flood them with ideas and see what happens.
Camberwell needs a Community Development Trust. Like Coin Street but obviously tuned to this area. That’s my idea.
[Reply]
November 15th, 2007 at 10:16 am
Touch Typos above:
isead - ideas
town happ = town hall
Community Development Trust = the way forward
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:20 am
“What kind of paving will make things better here?” - Wider paving, for a start.
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Agreed, Peter.
But then you will get c***s parking on it every day, as on Camberwell New Road, Denmark Road, Wyndham Road and even the redeveloped section of Walworth Road. Did you see that one coming, Living Streets?
So in an era when uncourageous local authorities are still psychologically unable to accept that motorists can behave in an anti-social manner, the solution is a difficult one.
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:36 am
They’ve repaved lots of areas around here recently. Grove lane for example between the Hermit’s and The Canning.
They have used flag stones rather than tarmac which is great because it can be maintained easily each time they put in new pipes and cables wihtout becoming shabby looking.
It looks smarter and improves the all round feel. It’s a step towards enstilling a sense of civic pride.
It’s safer too and it’s got those bobbly bits so blind people know where they are..
More of the same would be good.
I don’t think you cna say it’s not worth sorting out the pavements because there is no grand scheme for sacing Camberwell froom the bands of cock waving drunkken vagabonds.
It’s all about achievable goals.
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:41 am
Dear Ideas Factory,
Why not put the tramps to work doing the paving on Denmark Hill?
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Crazy paving.
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:47 am
@Alan - if they’re so unabashed, the Council should put their cocks in the stocks.
Those of you living on red routes Church Street and New Road, the best remake you can hope for from TfL (who govern your pavements) is tarmac. So don’t even ask and pray it never comes up in committee at TfL. Keep your old broken flagstones - much better, and more civic. Less Honda Civic.
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November 15th, 2007 at 10:53 am
Yes Alan. Perhaps that would be tricky. I mean what if a nutter jumped in a giant bull dozer and started heading right into Butterfly Walk.
Tragedy*!!
*no offence to the nutters who can’t help their condition, which is the direct result of cars
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November 15th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
@24 however in Shoreditch TfL have wonderrfully repaved a red route with York Stone and very fine it looks too! - and they do have a lot of money for refurbishemnt of public spaces and squares - maybe we could get them to do some camberwell areas?
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November 15th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
On another note does anyone know what is happening to the Red Star?
I went past the other day and it seems to be being done up - to what it wasnt clear. Anyone have any further info?
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November 15th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
I mentioned Red Star a while back. It is being cleaned and done up to try to get someone to let it from the owners of the original lease as far as I can see…
IF anyone’s interested in getting more info call Ian on 07973 370 498. He’s the contact number I was given when I asked. I just tried but the phone was switched off.
It used to be a gay bar. In my view it still should be.
But what the hell do I know?
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November 15th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
@18 CDT a very good idea. Not sure coin st is the model (it is blessed because of its location and car park). But there are other examples. perhaps lb southwark could gift the town hall if/when they clear out. is anyone pursuing the cdt idea?
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November 15th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
Anyone else not thrilled about being charged £91/yr to park outside your own flat in Camberwell’s new Controlled Parking Zones? The council say the fee is to make the scheme self-financing but adds, rather ambiguously, that any excess will be used for other traffic related projects.
I take public transport to work and tend to use the car at the weekends, visiting friends and family who live outside London. I have no problem finding a parking space and £91 seems a lot in addition to the £1200 insurance I pay because I live in SE5. Surely parking fines alone will generate a surplus of revenue?
The council claim that the aim of the CPZ is to ease congestion and help shops by freeing up parking spaces. But I can’t imagine a convoy of cars suddenly roaring over here, loading a meter and buying lots of items for a pound, thus saving our local economy. They do say the majority responded in favour of the scheme. If that’s you, please explain how the CPZ scheme benefits Camberwell and how it eases congestion. I can think of a more effective way to ease congestion - it involves Network Rail and a certain bridge - but we’ve already covered that one, right?!
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November 15th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Depends how its used but if it discourages people from using cars, reduces the number of cars that sit dormant in the same place for weeks on end and raises cash for public transport, cycle tracks and pedestrianisation then I’m all for it.
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November 15th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
forgive my ignorance as a non car owner but don’t you have to pay for residents permits anyway?
Sounds cheap compared to the £10,000 plus £100 per annum fee charged for the car park by my block of flats!!
I think i’ll stick to the modest £50 per month to use Ken’s fine red buses and not a parking problem to be had!!
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November 15th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
The controlled parking in Camberwell has never been ‘controlled’, it’s just happened in a fairly haphazard way across the area. It’s particularly silly on the Lambeth / Southwark borders where, in some places, there’s control on one side of the road and no restrictions on the other.
CDT transfer of ownership
Agree Coin Street has amazing land values and it’s not SE5 but it’s a great start for us because they have 25 years experience, they work with Lambeth and Southwark and are keen to support new Development Trusts through start up and growth.
There’s quite a lot to do but really. It’s not complicated. Really it’s not.
1) Leisure Centre (baths) granted to CDT plus cash injection to the Trust of £1.5 million currently set aside for maintenance & repairs to pump prime the Trust. CDT establishes long term redevelopment plan based on proven need and aspirations for the site. Keep swimming as core part of future use. Previous schemes have been nowhere near ambitious enough for the site and have revolved around simple renovation of existing facilities. Completely useless for the way we live now. Loads of space is wasted. This major asset being owned by the CDT allows leverage for borrowing against further bricks & mortar. Site developed to include long term rental income as well as core provision of health & fitness ‘obligations’. E.g. a new doctors’ surgery could net a rent of 50K a year; dentists, the library moved to an upper floor, and so on. All possibilities for income should be looked at before discarding.
2) Camberwell Police station bought as a commercial expansion by CDT and redeveloped looking at local need and aspirations for retail and housing. A police station shop front included in the future use. Community wardens, local Forum, Traders, and voluntary organisations would use a facility here as their window on Camberwell… shared space, hot desking whatever.
3) Leases owned by Southwark locally - the library and shops at bottom of Grove Lane for example, are managed by CDT to correct free market trash that’s happening all around us and sustain the sort of retail that’s needed to encourage more quality and better footfall.
All this has to be done while looking at what happens to the local parks, paving, general amenities and services for SE5. Establishing Camberwell walks, more facilities for recreation that don’t involve booze, perhaps more exhibition space, live performance space, theatre, film stuff.
It would take ten years. Or a little less.
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November 15th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
You know what I think would make for a better centre? Shops & cafes around the green. Although I love those Peabody Trust brick apartments, I wish they could be moved back to make space. Either that or close the top of Camberwell Rd and allow them to open there. It could make a really nice municipal space.
It’ll never happen.
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November 15th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Went to Caravaggios for the 3rd time in 7 days and have been very impressed each time. It has a very nice atmosphere and is very reasonably priced. It was packed this lunchtime - proving there is a good market in Camberwell so long as you give a bit of good service and don’t try and rip everyone off.
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November 16th, 2007 at 1:00 am
Butterball - what gives you the right to leave your car stored on the street, taking up valuable local space, at all? Anti-social, I call it.
You’re in the minority, as a car-owning household. Don’t try and pretend you’re speaking for the common man. A 98% subsidy on market rate - and you’re moaning.
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November 16th, 2007 at 1:08 am
hear hear Regen
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November 16th, 2007 at 1:08 am
Toodlepip
night night
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November 16th, 2007 at 10:01 am
Hilarious isn’t it? Good people who wanna improve Camberwell are the bad guys for having an opinion on CPZ’s?
Sorry Guru, you could ban all cars or tax them beyond believe and you’ve still got the same problems in Camberwell. Besides, it won’t happen and even if it does, it would happen across London or the whole country the same and we’re still stuck on the same rung.
There are too many places withing spitting distance where cars are every bit (or more) prevelant and they manage a nice community with clean streets, good shops, and little anti-social behaviour. It’s about time you schemers let down your loony left walls and start holding people accountable for their bad behaviour instead of blaming those who contribute positvely to the area.
Funny. I went back months even years on this blog and guess what? We’re still holding a talking shop about the same ol same ol.
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November 16th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Wtf do you do about anything societal, JohnnyM, except carp and boast to your friends over drinks about “winding up champagne socialists”?
Nothing, I suspect, as you cross the road to avoid the next anti-social incident, head cowed, on your way to the internet to chide others for not standing up to the criminal element.
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November 16th, 2007 at 10:33 am
“champagne socialists”, “loony left”… what next, JohnnyM? “Yuppies”? “Red Ken”? I know there’s an 80s revival in fashion, but I didn’t realise it had extended to language as well.
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November 16th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Yes the left isn’t guilty of similar hyperbole. Though I did see some interesting exagerated characterisations on a highly charged leftwing political website. You can read them here: http://www.petergasston.co.uk/
Anyway, perhaps a vote of confidence? Are you the whole of Camberwell backing Guru in saying the key to improving the area is to elminate cars? That’s what he wants. He thinks with that sorted the ills of Camberwell will fall away. So let’s have it folks, are any of the rest of you tired of hearing his diatribes or do you support his way as the promised land?
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November 16th, 2007 at 10:54 am
JohnnyM the weakness of your debate is betrayed by your need to distort my position, which is to regulate properly, but not eliminate, cars.
We’ve got a full programme for Camberwell. But as you doubtless have not attended a single Forum meeting, nor a Southwark Council meeting of any kind, you won’t be aware of that.
And yes, the Forum does intend to give people the right to vote on single issues of all kinds in Camberwell. It will be a historical first in SE5, and you will see it after the forthcoming site upgrade, perhaps in January-February.
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November 16th, 2007 at 10:57 am
From Wikipedia: “A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “set up a straw man” or “set up a straw man argument” is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.”
Boring.
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November 16th, 2007 at 10:59 am
You might disagree with the detail, but Mr Guru’s general point that cars have too dominant a position in SE5 is right. Take a walk around the Camberwell Green junction. The traffic around there is truly enervating. And as part of any regeneration, it needs rethinking. I think too he has a point about the standard of driving and parking. Jaw droppingly bad at times and dangerous; and often behind the heightened sense of aggression one feels in the area I’m no white wine leftie, but politics at the local level doesn’t really lend itself to dogma from either wing. It’s about action. And I think Mark’s ideas around what a CDT trust might do are really rather exciting, in contrast to arid debates about cars, cycling, CPZs, offies and pate.
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November 16th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Thanks, Florian and Peter.
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November 16th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Cars are tricky, though. It’s proven that no though roads and no traffic across housing estates make them feel less safe and leave more opportunity for vandals, etc. In some areas around Walworth/Camberwell/Peckham it’s advisable to stay near roads with traffic at night (evening now it’s Winter) if you’re on foot.
But large parts of the area are ruined by commuters driving in from Kent and Sussex. Locals aren’t the problem.
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November 16th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Yeah, Mark Dodds’ ideas are good.
The leisure center is really run down. It gives it a kind of charm, but would you swim there?
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November 16th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
To maybe contradict some other posts…
There’s a lot of community around here, especially for people with young families. It’s really enjoyable.
But most of these people are mostly focused on getting by and raising their kids, so don’t have much time or energy for big picture stuff.
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November 16th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Btw, thanks to Peter and others who post about the new places to shop, eat, drink, and be entertained.
What I’d really like is a place where you can buy vegetables (fresh, not fozen).
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November 16th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
D-MAN not Camberwell but have you tried Peckham Farmers Market every Sunday morning in the Square just outside the Library. obviously there are limitations as it is a real farmers market so goods can only be sourced up to 90 (or is it 70?) miles from central London.
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November 16th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
On the subject of cars i think they are part of life but Camberwell is an illustration of how anti social and space hungry they can be - i was nearly knocked over on Coldharbour lane the other day when someone thought the best way to park was to mount the pavement at some speed.
Another interesting thing was that yesterday i went to the launch of some research about providing more play space for children in inner cities. I learnt an interesting fact:
There are 33 million cars in the UK but only 11 million children.
and the saddest thing was a quote from a 8 year old when asked what improvements she would like to see in her local park she replied:
“They should ask us what should happen to this place. Because if it was an adults’ park it would be car park; they love car parks.”
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November 16th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
D-MAN
Oli Food Centre on Walworth Road supplies most of my fresh vegetable needs. Fresh mint, basil, coriander, oak leaf lettuce, etc.
For organics, an excellent bio-dynamic farm stall at the Oval on a Saturday ’til 3, which I patronise for root vegetables where the difference in taste is clear.
On your cars point - the 50mph-ers aren’t doing much to discourage local crime. I’d suggest that if things were taken down to 20mph, you might be right.
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November 16th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
In Camberwell I use Cruson; you do get the occasional clunker, but mostly it’s nice and fresh. Can’t make any guarantees on air miles or organic certification, if that’s your thing.
Mind you, if that is your thing you could get them delivered from Abel & Cole.
Most of the time, however, I buy from a little shop by Smithfields market, around the corner from London’s best butcher (IMHO).
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November 16th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Good tips. Thanks. Tend to avoid vegetables stood out by a busy roadside.
Already get Abel & Cole. We eat a lot of veg so often need topping up by the w/end.
I heard Green Ventures just started back up, so will rejoin them too.
The great thing about Green Ventures is:
1) It has an alternative, community, mildly hippy vibe. Cool.
2) They deliver. By bike! This is for real… they have a trailer.
3) They do special deals for low-income households. Think they get some kind of regeneration grant.
4) Seems to have ethical connection to where stuff is sourced, etc.
5) It’s a non-profit social enterprise (is that good or bad?)
Peckham Farmer’s market has always seemed a little bedraggled. It’s like trying to import a bit of Islington in Peckham, but not quite pulling it off. Never seems that busy either. I should support it more, I guess.
Anyone know where you can get organic milk?
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November 16th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Jeez, I can’t believe there is still all this nonsense about cars. There are so so many more things wrong with Camberwell.
Housing, parenting, education, neglected facilities. Restricting car use or even banishing them all together would make it far far worse because then the likelihood of getting a seat on public transport would be far worse. Or would everyone just cycle? Hmmm
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November 16th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
We need more damn cars, not less,we should all go back to leaded fuel and throw the old school burger polystyrene containers out of the window. Stick overpriced organic veg up your arse and your fancy gastro-pubs let’s all go to hell who’s with me? We’re all in inner city Camberwell hell anyway, may as well enjoy it. Nothing is going to change. It’s going to get worse. F- flavour of the month bourgeois green issues.
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November 16th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Biddy biddy biddy what’s up Buk?
Anyone going to try the Bear again this weekend? I am for sure- now that I know what Onglet is!
Hermit’s Cave tonight maybe but I’ve got to go to an American Psycho party in Fulham first.
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November 16th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
I’m just having fun.
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November 16th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
What is an Onglet then? Enlighten us Peasants!!
I’m going to defect to East Dulwich to try Hoopers if i ever leave work on time today!
Final couple of words on transport - uncle Ken has given Southwark £5.4 million for transport improvements and some of that is coming Camberwell way!
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/6464.aspx
and a typical Camberwell story that made me smile - me and the boyfriend were walking home last night at about half midnight when we were acosted by a worried woman who wanted to know if the last 436 had gone - “i think it has” i replied “but don’t worry the 36 is a night bus and it goes more or less the same route” “oh i know that” she said ” but it’s not free like the 436!”
My other half, who works for TfL, tried to look suitably shocked .. but failed!
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November 16th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onglet
I’d be really interested to hear about Hoopers. I’ve never seen it at all busy.
If it’s cr@p you could try out the Montpelier just down the road in Bellenden area. Nr Petitou…
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November 16th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
I think it’s a good idea to put on free buses between central London and the more impoverished areas of town. Sort of unofficial redistribution..
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November 16th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Very Robin Hood of TfL!!!
However i remember when i used the 436 a lot to get to and from work it did seem to be the winter park bench for many tramps
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November 16th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Keeps the parks nice.
Do you still see Squidder Buk?
I went out for a pint with FoxyAl in Dulwich Village the other night. He moved to Crystal Palace so the Crown and Greyhound is about half way between our two locations.
I also got an email off Sparty recently. He’s coming round to visit near Christmas. He’s still got his Golden Triangle flat in Brixton but he’s working in Bruxelles and renting it out.
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November 16th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
@60 - excellent news, Hannah. Although hopefully they will not be spending money just to meet a committee budget deadline, as with the Denmark Hill repaving, it appears.
The £5.4 million actually comes quite close to the figure generated annually by TfL’s cameras on Camberwell New Road since 2000, so it will be interesting to see how much attention the New Road gets with this bout of largesse from the man in Red.
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November 16th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
http://www.philippekindelis.net/freetransport.htm
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November 16th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
As a longtime lurker on your excellent site, Peter, and a Camberwell lifer who escaped to the US 17 years ago, I couldn’t help laugh at the Independent’s lead story today on Brits who are leaving the country in ever growing numbers, especially Sarah Omerod who recently moved to sunnier climes in Stasbourg. Her quote is priceless: “My time in France has exceeded my expectations. From the purely professional, being able to see how policy is made in other EU countries, for example, to the purely sociable, being able to spend the weekend on the beach instead of in Camberwell, it’s been brilliant.” Poor old Camberwell, hard to compete with Strasbourg…
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November 16th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Whoop de Whoop £470k to do the pavement and road on Denmark Hill south of the Hospital it must be a priority on someones list ( isn’t this Herne Hill?) .This is 8% of the total budget. I would have thought that the area around Butterfly Walk is in need of upgrading, wider pavements and some of bus stops moved over to the green 45 & 35 are good candidates Hopefully a CDT could help deliver sensible solutions for the local community.
I drive a car, walk and use public transport I also have a pathological hatred of cyclists on pavements something to do with being knocked unconcious by one and ending up in hospital. There are rotten car drivers, pedestrians, cyclists and bus drivers but most are okay lets have a bit of peace and harmony.
Lambeth have upped the price of their CPZ from £60 p.a. to it being graded by the size of your car mine is now £100 p.a and that is for a hybrid, still less than £2.00 a week however it seems to have nothing to do with a green policy just revenue generation.
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November 16th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Glad that the ONGLET has caught the imagination of bloggers, perhaps this weekend they’ll have a new pretentious menu item not to explain to the ignorant patrons! Have a good one ALAN DALE!
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November 16th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Pretentious menu items? How about Spelt - seen on the menu of a resturant on the Southbank - i thougth Spelt was a type of flour but am willing to be proved wrong!
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November 16th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
@D-MAN (55): They sell organic milk in the Spar petrol station on Peckham Road. Do they not have it in Basic on Denmark Hill?
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November 16th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
I hate the raise the spectre of JohnnyM now he’s gone quiet for a few hours, but reading his latest posts just now something occurred to me - I have a strong feeling he’s aged about 15, if not slightly younger. I think the gaps in posts come when he has to do his homework, or tidy his room.
Apologies. Back to the - far more important - transport stuff.
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November 16th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
@ Peter W
Love it! But seriously, if he really is only 15, his vocabulary is very well advanced (hyperbole, foie gras) so the homework is definitely paying off. That said, he appears to have bunked off 50% of the political studies lessons (and missed anything to the left of Ghengis Khan).
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November 16th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Ben Gibberish- Strasbourg beach?! It’s 200 miles from the sea.
Strasbourg is great song by the Rakes and a shit town by the lakes.
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November 16th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Gnomee - the CDT idea is interesting.
But unless we can convince TfL to change its mind and factor in Camberwell’s needs as a destination as well as a throughput, nothing much will change.
I think you would be shocked to see some TfL internal documents:
(1) aiming to push through as much traffic as possible based on projections that private motor car use will not decline;
(2) claiming to treat traffic as encompassing cyclists, pedestrians and motorists together, but in fact using length of vehicles to measure throughput, whether public bus or private motor car.
The mayoral campaign is nigh. I suggest people make up their mind quickly whether it is possible to influence Ken to take notice of Camberwell’s needs, or whether a detailed alternative view and firm policy commitment for Camberwell should be sought from Boris Johnson.
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November 16th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Could someone explain to me the practicalities of how a CDT runs? Does it have its own staff, and if so, how do they get selected and paid? How is it accountable to the community for its performance and how the money is spent? Is it a quango? Are there any other CDTs other than Coin Street?
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November 16th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
http://www.dta.org.uk for information on cdts.
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November 16th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
i think that JohnnyM is classic - its great to have a bit of Daily MAil bloggism for a change. If you look at this paper it is still stuck in the 80’s with its hatred of trade unionists lefties - Derek Hatton, Ken, Neil Kinnock are still targets when everyone else had forgotten them. I saw a copy for the first time in about 15years - it made me feel quiet nauseous.
Still it is the voice of middle England - petty racist and dumb - just like our little friend JohnnyM.
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November 16th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Hey, Alan! Good to get a response from one of the people who most make the Camberwell site such a fun read. I realize that criticizing the place where one lives is a touchy thing, especially for someone who seems to have so much invested in keeping local real estate prices above water, but you have to admit that part of Camberwell’s perverse charm is its mix of the marvelous with the profoundly crap. While other places yuppify or decay, Camberwell simply soldiers on, as crap-great now as it was when I grew up there in the 60s and 70s. Only the names of the pubs change. But it’s a hard combination to live with, as I know from personal experience, and I don’t blame people like Sarah Omerod for getting out. I’ll always have affection for Camberwell, but if this site is still going in twenty years time we’ll still be reading about its great architecture, its proximity to central London, its amazing promise—and its street drinkers, the shocking state of the Green and the ever-so-imminent unveiling of plans for a tube connection…
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November 16th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Lovin’ this Ben guy.
Now. I’m taking odds on bonbohue not getting called up for his out of order comments from the left. Double standard.
We’re off out. And that means getting the heck out of Camberwell and taxi-ing home in the wee hours. Shame we can’t stroll down the high street.
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November 16th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
What I don’t understand about people like Sarah Ormerod is why they don’t keep quiet about this great place they’ve found. I’d imagine one of the reasons for the move was to get away from the problems of 21st century society; if you then make a point of telling people how great it is, more will go there, and soon the problems will begin there too.
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November 16th, 2007 at 10:54 pm
hey JohnnyM don’t get me wrong - the more the better - nothing wrong with a good stir up - things can get a bit complacent when everyone agrees.
and for your info I’m certainly not a lefty more on the libertarian side of things.
Freedom of all speech please- even if I don’t agree with it otherwise we’re out there with the Nazis, Stalin & the Blair/Browns stifling dissent & democracy
depriving us of our rights!
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November 16th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
I don’t think JohnnyM has said anything racist or dumb; selfish and ill-mannered, perhaps.
BTW, JohnnyM, plenty of people here have strolled, and will be strolling, down the high street, and we’re all still alive. Perhaps it’s not as dangerous as you’re afraid.
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November 17th, 2007 at 12:07 am
Maybe he’s just winding you up.
Why would you live in Camberwell if you were afraid of walking down Church St?
Alan- yep, I see still Squidder regularly.
Goodnight.
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November 17th, 2007 at 1:15 am
ONglet - flank steak I think - I had it on Thursday night. Asked for Med Rare and it came BLUE but el chef cooked it a bit more when I asked.
Duck rilletes were good and the toast too
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November 17th, 2007 at 3:43 am
“And hats off to Hatton!”
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November 17th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
@ Norman Maine
That must have seemed such a good joke at 3.43 am!
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November 17th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Excuse copy and paste from my post on SE5 forum but it might help put in context some of the posts above on Southwark Saturation policy… which I was vehemently against as nice bars and pubs opening up in this area is actually helping the area not making it worse…
In essence, the aim of Southwark Council is to try and address an issue that is fundamentally a police issue (e.g. street drinking, selling alcohol outside of licensed hours and unlicensed venues. Unfortunately it seems that this is not a priority area for the police which means that the council are powerless to do anything about the problems. The saturation policy is an attempt to try and reclaim some powers - e.g. to stop more White Lightning vendors opening up - or the ability to legally refuse the licence renewal of those shops that already do sell it. The are no plans to use the powers to stop new pubs / bars opening.
In my opinion this is not addressing the real problem - i.e. the police don’t enforce the existing laws that exist. However, I whole heartedly support the council in their attempt to do all that they can do to sort our street drinking / alcohol related violence problem out themselves
“On the subject of alcohol licenses, one of our local councillors for the Brunswick ward (Ian Wingfield) gave quite a lot of insight on this issue at a meeting on Thursday night. The problem basically stems from the law and decisions taken by magistrates if the council tries to withold licenses.
If the council doesn’t approve a license, or a reapplication for a license, those making the applications can take the matter to court and they will pretty much always get a decision in their favour. There have also been issues with premises selling alcohol without a license - something that the council is aware of but effectively have no powers to do anything about. This is a police and enforcement issue. The old Aristocrats nightclub was a good example of this. Clearly some lobbying to force the police to take action about such venues would be beneficial.
The current initiative seems to be to bring in a saturation policy. This would allow the council to arbitrarily refuse license applications or reapplications and enable them to sidestep the legal system. The claim is that they would use this power sensibly, and I am sure that is the intention.
I have some reservations about this approach, and it seems to me that it is the current system that really needs reform rather than granting executive powers that may or may not be used properly.
Certain premises were named as venues that regularly attract violence, and the suggestion was that the saturation policy could be used as a stick to force them to straighten up. In my mind if trouble spots are known there should be ways to deal with this within existing legislation and policing.”
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November 17th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
As for CPZ, don’t get me started.
It is, in my view, essentially a money raising activity from the council.
However, the problem that we have is that when they did stage 1 of the consultation, a higher proportion of residents were in favour of introducing the CPZ than against.
Having spoken to a number of these residents, their issue is that the roads around Wilson Road are used a lot for commuters (Denmark Hill station) and by those who work at the council. Therefore it is often very difficult to get a space.
I don’t have a car and on the rare occasions that I hire one I have never had a problem. As I don’t have a car the new proposals won’t really affect me - aside from the fact that I have, had really bad experience in other areas of using visitor permits in the past.
If you disagree with CPZ proposals DO fill in the response we got through our letterboxes yesterday. The council are listening, they just think that they are doing what we want!
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November 17th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Ben the themes may be similar but Camberwell has changed a great deal in just the 4 or 5 years I’ve been here.
Maybe house prices aren’t everything (maybe) but they are an objective measure of increased demand for property here. When I first moved to Bavent Road my mates were renting a flat worth £120,000. It sold recently for £265,000.
I bet you wish you still owned the house you lived in in the 60s. Maybe you do..
There are still tramps and madheads around the green but all of the residential areas have and are being gentrified at a great pace.
Obviously, being an ex pat you are seeking constant reassurance that you did the right thing and love to read negative comments about Camberwell that affirm your view. There are plenty here so read on. Or alternatively you could go and find an Irish Bar where you might meet some Brits who will tell you how overtaxed we are back in the UK.
Personally I think you’d need a very good reason to emigrate. Ronny Biggs was right to leave. Until we get more background on you then the jury is out.
If you are ever back home then give us a blog and I’ll show you around this town you left and that I love.
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November 17th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
79 Great observations Ben thanks for the historical context for where we are now. If you can, please send a comment to stan.dubeck@SOUTHWARK.GOV.UK - he’s Camberwell’s Neighbourhood Renewal manager
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November 17th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Oh I forgot. Yesterday I spent a penny in Camberwell’s new loo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/se5forum/sets/72157603219108983/
Glad to say it’s still in fairly good shape, no overt signs of abuse in there yet, not smelly, not repugnant. Yet. It#s free by the way and you have 20 minutes to do your business, whatever it may be, before the door opens, and there’s an alarm two minutes before opening time.
And discovered the reason for it taking so long to open once it was ready ‘to go’ - it was waiting for the electricity company to get the power on.
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November 17th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
See Ben? We’s got us a new toilet! And the house prices done doubled*
*everywhere else in London did the same so we’re no better off really
Mates who lived here and convinced us to bide our time here say the same as you do Ben. And they got a bit emotionally involved and defensive but say the day they left it all made sense. Camberwell that is. They can see it rationally now and know the score.
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November 17th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Anyone who has to convince themselves they did the right thing to leave is clutching at straws.
I don’t justify my decision to leave Grimsby.
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November 17th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
In the reverse, it’s sort of like most of Camberwell convincing ourselves regularly that we did the right thing moving here!
‘It’s not so bad, it’s not so bad, it’s not so bad’
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November 17th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Camberwell’s the new Grimsby!!!
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November 17th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
I guess some people do need reassurance either that they should leave, should stay, should emigrate, should go back to Grimsby - whatever. If they get the reassurance they need here on Peter’s site then that’s fine.
Maybe you are unsure about what to do and you are hoping to get confirmation that you should move or maybe we can even show you how to enjoy living here. Ultimately it’s up to you.
The other possibility is that you enjoy telling people their hopes for their home are in vain. Seems a bit heartless but if that keeps your nads stocked then fill your boots.
Today we went to Selfridges to get Christmas presents then took the kids to the Horniman in the afternoon. It was a bit busy but the kids were happy. Tonight I’m going on a bit of a real ale pub crawl in the SE42 area. I’ll skirt the borders of Camberwell, Peckham and East Dulwich. I’m only going in the Ivanhoe if there are more than 10 people though..
No Silver Buckle tonight but I will be in there again soon. It reminds me of the Crab Shack from My name is Earl.
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November 18th, 2007 at 1:10 am
Like Alan, I don’t need to convince myself of anything about living here; I came here by choice, and I like it here. I don’t like everything - I’m not stupid - but there’s enough here to keep me happy.
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November 18th, 2007 at 1:38 am
There are more good people I know in Camberwell than any other place I’ve lived. From my home town Newcastle to Manchester, Southport, Chicago, Paris, Balham, Kennington. Well I got to know quite a few in New Cross and Cordoba.
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November 18th, 2007 at 1:39 am
I lived in Nigeria for five years too but that was before I knew about good and bad and before memories stuck.
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November 18th, 2007 at 1:40 am
Darcus Howe told me he knew ‘The Sun and Doves was touched with the brush, if you don’t mind the saying, that’s why I like it here’.
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November 18th, 2007 at 1:42 am
Sorry to keep jumping about like this. I found this rather fascinating site about MALT earlier today. It’s really worth a look:
http://www.ukmalt.com/aboutMAGB/unlocking.asp
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November 18th, 2007 at 10:30 am
(being facetious for a moment) Alan wheres SE42 - is a new London area that you have discovered little known about by other people?)
There was an interesting (for some) article in the Times on Friday saying that Camberwell has potential to become a ‘prime’ London address - see http://tinyurl.com/2nqchl
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November 18th, 2007 at 11:30 am
15 +5 +22 =42
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November 18th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
@103 That kind of stuff has been written about Camberwell for decades. And not so long ago there was an article, in the Guardian I think it was, about ‘Denmark Hill’ as an area to consider moving to.
The press know damn all about Camberwell, they just have to write STUFF to be paid for their pointless jobs. So Camberwell becomes a talking up point along with all the other soon to be breaking places dotted around the capital - its central location and buses galore make it a prime logical case, that no journalist can be accused of not researching well enough, of ‘next best thing to sliced bread’ for good value, investment opportunity and lifestyle choice. However. IT does not changes and it NEVER will unless participants in the area actually begin to PARTICIPATE instead of standing on the bylines and just observing.
Participation in this case means doing more than going out and having a drink locally. It means getting out to meetings once in a while that have more to do with the future of the area than discussing whether one pub’s particular pint & pie are better value or served better than another’s.
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November 18th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
I meant to point out that Camberwell is still often called ‘Camden’ or ‘Camberley’ by people who live less than five miles from here who simply cannot place it in their mental map of London.
- Including the ITV person who introduced Camden (Camberwell) Baths to the UK populace a few years ago on the People’s Millions, when we (the people of Camberwell) were trying to get the nation to vote for 50K for US against the amateur dramatic society of England based in Saffron Walden or somewhere like that.
No Contest. They got the vote.
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November 18th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
That said, the Bear was excellent again today. It is just in a class of its own.
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November 18th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Can’t disagree Alan.
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November 18th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
I wish Olly and I had got together a year and a half ago.
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November 18th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Who’s Olly? The Chef?
I intend to go back a few more times before I try anywhere else- I am keen to try the partridge and the duck. I have had the roast beef and the Onglet already.
Real asset to the area and likely to draw people in from other areas. There is lots of parking on Camberwell Station road..
Mind you - I am also excited about Caravaggio. Had a look in the window. Looks great.
House, Church St Hotel, Caravaggio, the secret Thai restaurant in Seymour Bros Cafe, Jazz in the Crypt, The Hermit’s Cave- Church St has ignored the criticism and the squabbling and become dangerously cool.
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November 18th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Olly’s the chef/owner. I sincerely hope he can ride out the early chill of the reality of opening there to make it work well as a business. They need a good review or two in Time Out and The Standard to bring the punters in.
Nothing can persuade me that Church Street is dangerously cool other than droves of dangerously cool people moving up and down between the bars and eating places, spending money and keeping them full.
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November 18th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
We haven’t been here long but had mates here for ages (most have gone). Maybe I’m wrong, but Alan I think you have a false sense of what is happening here. From what I know, it ain’t been one long tale of slowly getting better. It’s been a roller coaster. Some would say Camberwell was better as recently as five or six years ago and slumped again. I think the idea that one by one good stuff is moving in is wrong. Dunno. It’s not a tale of East Dulwich, Vauxhall or Kennington.
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November 19th, 2007 at 10:49 am
I would acept ‘optimistic outlook’ over ‘false sense of what is happening’.
Since I have lived here the following new businesses have opened that I now use regularly- House, Thai at Seymour Bros, Dark Horse, The Grove, The Phoenix, Cafe Bay, Su Thai, The Bear, Lip Smacking African Cuisine, and I ‘m sure there are others if I thought about it.
There are also places that were already here that I like such as the Doves, The Canning and The Hermit’s Cave. I also like Nandos but I realise that’s not for everybody.
Then in the extended area, Lorship Lane and Bellenden offer wealth of constantly improving amenities within walking distance.
Then there are the parks - Ruskin and Lucas Gardens in particular but I also go to the festivals in Burgess Park and the Lido and the Lambeth Country show in Brockwell Park. I also go to the fireworks in Brockwell which is an infintely more pleasant experience than the equivalent in Clapham. I also like Dulwich Park and the cafe there.
Then there is the