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Welcome to the Camberwell Online blog, a place for free and spirited exchange on anything with even a tangential connection to the South-East London district.
The Times, it is a-changin’
Published by Peter | Filed under Crime, Politics
What do I see in yesterday’s The Times? Why, it’s Hannah, Dagmar, and PeteW, defending our Harriet! My criticism of HH comes not because she wore a stab-proof vest, but because she’s a Nu-Labour yes-(wo)man, always voting just the way her party tells her. Come on, Harriet; be a rebel!
This is just an interim post; more tomorrow.
Update: The Goldfrapp video filmed in Addington Square is available to watch now. Quite funny to see that bus stop, telephone box, and fruit & veg stall there. Thanks to Matt for finding this.
April 3rd, 2008
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:52 am
Blimey - we are the voice of Camberwell!! -
[Reply]
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:25 am
Filling up a third of an article with quotes from bloggers is lazy journalism and incredibly depressing.
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April 3rd, 2008 at 11:35 am
Indeed but a trend that’s on the rise.
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April 3rd, 2008 at 11:36 am
In a change of topic some of us on Camberwell New Road had a local council by-election recently (we fall just inside Vassal Ward). As part of the campaign Mr Lucas spoke to a representative of the Lib Dems. They asked what he’d like done in the area and among other things he mentioned the litter on our stretch of the road and the lack of a bin since someone drove into it nearly two years ago at the local bus stop. They said they’d see what they could do. The next day we had a copy of an email trhough our door which was a request on our behalf for a bin at the offending bus stop. Impressive. Then almost immediately a new bin appeared literally outside our front door, we now had our very own litter bin.
The election has now been and gone and so has the bin. Vanished.
The Lib Dems won I think.
[Reply]
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I wonder if someone is stealing bins -i’ve noticed the one on our road has gone walkabout recently!
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April 3rd, 2008 at 12:40 pm
What that article illustrates to me is that we should never write anything negative about Camberwell as it will be reported and misconstrued.
But then who’d be negative about the area where they live? They’d just move if they didn’t like it. Wouldn’t they?
[Reply]
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:04 pm
http://www.wheelie-bins-online.co.uk has answers. It’s all Spring fever, basically, nothing sinister - we have it here - internet fora, Nazi prostitutes (Norman Maine slipped that one in - you naughty boy!), JohnnyM carried shoulder-high through town and showered with rose petals by native girls, Peter re-classified from spod to celebrity - hey Times readers, come to Camberwell, it’s crazy! Due praise to Hannah - internet flora - she made us be nice in the nick of Time.
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April 3rd, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Very lazy journalism. The comments under it are a wonderful blend of blowhard bile and mike gigglerisms.
I’m usually against politicians representing vested interests (Gigglerism), but this was nothing more than a dozy PR cock-up. Does she live in her constituency? Poor show if not .
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April 3rd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
But what exalted company we are in; quotes are taken from both here and http://www.godlikeproductions.com, “a Conspiracy Forum. Discussion topics include UFOs, Conspiracy, Lunatic Fringe, Politics, Current Events, Secret Societies, Conspiracy Theories and much more”.
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April 3rd, 2008 at 6:47 pm
entertaining though the comments from the blog were this is some of the lamest journalism I have ever seen.
Hold the front page, we have some breaking news - some initials and a indecipherable symbol have been scratched into the window of a London Bus … see page 5 for expert opinions on what it could mean.
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April 3rd, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Journalism - don’t get me started on that one! You start on the Winchester Times, progress (??) to The South London Press and “graduate” to The Sun. Or, if you’re not a pornographer (or prepared to rub shoulders with them), the Daily Mail or even The Even Stanit.
If anyone out there remembers The Pop Group - “we are all prostitutes,….. everyone has their price”. Not sure I agree with the statement, but it seems rather pertinent when talking about British journalism.
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April 3rd, 2008 at 10:57 pm
I found the tone and premise of the article lame.
But I’m not sure I agree that this is sloppy journalism. Why is it sloppy?
Aren’t these comments genuine? And local?
I like that kind of local input. And why not rip it from a blog?
I work for an online news organization (trade publishing). There are core standards of accuracy and ethics to maintain, but the way information is collected and dispersed is changing.
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April 3rd, 2008 at 11:08 pm
It’s not even sloppy journalism. It’s column inches based on nowt.
There is a building. There is a pavement. Here is an MP walking through part of their constituency accompanied by police people. The MP is wearing clothes. So are the police people. They are all wearing shoes.
Shit. Shock Horror.
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April 3rd, 2008 at 11:36 pm
I can’t believe this is the first time in print for everyone concerned, but congratulations.
As long as phrases like “sources close to Donald33 claimed…” don’t start to appear in mainstream media, I can appreciate D-MAN’s point.
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April 4th, 2008 at 8:03 am
To be fair it was probably some of the better stuff printed in the Times that day. Not that the other broadsheets are much better, but the Times is by far the worst.
Don’t get me started on their property ramping, if you want to see something bad check out their ‘Bricks Chicks’.
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April 4th, 2008 at 9:22 am
@12, it’s lazy because the hack is relying on a small self-selected group of like minded individuals who populate a blog rather than leaving the office and interviewing a few locals. It’s sloppy because the blog covers camberwell, and you’ll notice the incident took place in peckham. So not locals. It is though a good story of its type. Does HH live in Camberwell or Peckham btw?
[Reply]
April 4th, 2008 at 9:30 am
PS She lives in Herne hill I learn; the nice bit of Camberwell and Peckham.
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April 4th, 2008 at 9:37 am
There are lots of nice bits. Some significantly nicer than Herne Hill.
I don’t think you can criticise her for loving the Lido though.
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April 4th, 2008 at 10:05 am
I used to love the way classic TV programme “Spitting Image” used to portray the press - Sheep in porkpie hats…never failed to make me laugh
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April 4th, 2008 at 10:44 am
I thought they were pigs. Are you sure?
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April 4th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Alan @ 20
I think there were both sheep and pigs - depending on what newspaper…non?
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April 4th, 2008 at 11:10 am
nice compromise. The Sun was pigs I suspect..
[Reply]
April 4th, 2008 at 11:11 am
By the way Spitting Image is back tomorrow night on ITV1 under a differnt name..
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April 4th, 2008 at 11:15 am
“The program will be called “Headcases” and will first air on ITV1 on 5th April 2008.”
according to Wikipedia. Can’t find it on the schedules though. Seems I’ve been the victim of a wikiwindup.
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April 4th, 2008 at 11:17 am
http://www.itv.com/entertainment/comedy/headcases/
Panic over - it’s on Sunday
[Reply]
April 4th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Alan
Looks like it might be amusing - although times have changed it will probably be more celebrity based than Spitting Image which had much more of obvious a political slant
Kenneth Baker slowly mutating into a slug? - LOL!
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April 4th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Alan
You might enjoy this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33YUALnF3JY
[Reply]
April 4th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
…and the, “I’ve never met a nice South African” sketch pops up right next to it. Classic!
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April 4th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
No youtube in the factory will watch back in the Close tonight..
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April 4th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
What an eventful week in Camberwell. This evening, the temperature is well over 60 degrees Fahrenheit and the air pressure 1026 millibars, perfect drinking weather.
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April 4th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Thanks Good Ness it’s perfect drinking weather - first time since early 2007 - because Aaron Barschack is on at The Sun and Doves again tonight. He’ll clear the bar within four minutes of starting his set. Unless people have been rehumoured by the clemency of the evening. They can all retire to the garden.
Alastair Darling is still barred from the pub by the way. If any of you bump into him please remind him.
Thanks.
[Reply]
April 4th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Wow! - Goldfrapp and their video director have almost made Camberwell look as chic(sic) as Notting Hill
I must admit to finding Alison Goldfrapp a rather attractive lady, I wonder if she’s as attractive in person? Hmmmm…
[Reply]
April 4th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Mark did you book the ‘Shack or was it an accident? Im staying away tonight as I dont like seeing people fall flat on their faces.
I saw him doodling about in public once, and he’s up to the ‘funny mate’ kind of standard but I can’t see it translating well to a enclosed venue.
Hopefully he will confound me.
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April 5th, 2008 at 2:08 am
eus. Alison Goldfrapp seems very attractive to me too. Like perfect. Which means I know she’s too good to be true. Which means I like her/their music and have to leave it at that. Up front she’ll be ordinary and possibly totally screwed up by being so good at what she does. The idea of a woman like that being together and solid and ‘normal’ is insane. Er stop now before going too far.
Duff - the B Shack came with the whole month deal organised by Mark McGowan and Guy Hilton. I left the pub this evening at 8.30 and he hadn’t turned up; he was supposed to be on at 8pm. Secretly I hope he didn’t come late at all. Because I was concerned that he might clear the premises with his sincerity.
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April 5th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Beer, Birds and Barschak. Nazi Tarts and Moseleys. Oh, Albion. Actually, Albion are fine, it’s Millwall we should be worried about today in their “battle with fellow relegation strugglers” Gillingham.
The art show at the SLG ends on Sunday - the films are worth watching there.
The American art show at the Dulwich Gallery is well worth the £20 you pay for two to be friends till September. It is stunning. For £20 for 6 months you can mosey around the gallery - moseley round the gallery - pretending you don’t live in… you can… there are no charity shops in Dulwich Village, has anyone else noticed that? A pity there aren’t. “Hello, I want to donate my husband. He is worth £250,000 a year cash.”
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April 6th, 2008 at 7:51 am
Charlton Heston was named after Charlton and Heston. Camberwell is exactly midway, which is spooky. Heston Services on the M4 is the site of the aerodrome where Neville Chamberlain waved his piece of paper promising peace in our time.
Talking of Hitler, I apologise to East Molesey in Surrey, a charming town, and Moseley in Birmingham. Oswald and his son Max are spelled Mosely. They got a pasting when they tried to address a crowd in the East End in 1962. What an example of what not to do, when, they both are! There are quite a few Mitford sisters round Camberwell, aren’t there? You occasionally hear a hoot.
The snow may reduce the numbers in our Tibet demo today. Where are we meeting? Tower Bridge?
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April 6th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Snow stopped play. In a way it’s a shame it’s not lying.
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April 6th, 2008 at 9:39 am
The High Priest of Gung Puru says the weather is worrisome.
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April 6th, 2008 at 10:34 am
I was walking down camberwell Grove the other day and it looks like they’re shutting it to all but bicycles for good. I thought they were going to put traffic lights in. Has anyone got the latest on it?
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April 6th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
The gap does look rather small, but the intention is i think to limit the road width so only one car at a time can cross (because of the weak bridge). The lights are there to regulate the flow. The long term aim is to replace the bridge to return the road to its natural state (so no lights), but that could take a long time. There is a strong local lobby to expedite the bridge’s replacement because no-one is particularly happy with the lights.
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April 6th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Having just spotted that I’m now an inadvertent contributor to the Times, I will spring (in part) to the defence of poor Jenny Booth, who has copped a bit of criticism for lifting the quotes in her article.
Yes, there is something a bit lazy about the whole process (and quoting, separately, from a ‘conspiracy theory’ site was just dumb), but I can imagine how it happened. Jenny is clearly a website-only reporter for the Times, probably a freelancer paid a day rate, and was doubtless told to get a bit of ‘local reaction’ in her piece. With - at a guess - less than an hour to write it and no prospect of leaving the office to actually speak to people in Camberwell and Peckham she’s clearly just done a Google search and filleted what she could.
No, it’s not Pulitzer-winning material but it’s what many other pressured reporters would do in the situation. National papers, which are desperately trying to get their ageing, inky fingers round the concept of this new-fangled interweb thing, love quoting blogs as they believe this is the ‘real’ voice of people in a locality. The fact it’s less time consuming than actually going out and talking to people, and thus cheaper, is not entirely coincidental.
I’d also take issue with calling journalists ‘prostitutes’, not surprisingly given that I am one (a journalist, that is; maybe prostitutes feel insulted by the comparison too). There are bad sorts in more or less every profession, and equally, plenty of excellent, low-profile types whose work is never really noticed by the wider public. Judging every journalist by the grubby standards of some Sun/Mail/Express articles is like greeting every accountant you ever meet with a jibe about Enron or WorldCom.
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April 6th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20672545@N07/2360931637/in/pool-camberwell_se5/
This is a photo of the Cruson shop van.
I really like it. Symbolises his determination to struggle on in Camberwell against the odds.
Great shop. I bought a Turkish coffee pot from there. YOu put the coffee and water in and then boil on the stove. You’re also supposed to add loads of sugar. It’s a lot of faff but I like it.
What’s the deal with flickr? Can I just buy a print of this and never tell the guy who took it?
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April 6th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Gave up on Headcases (Spitting image) after 10 mins. Combination of very poor start and competition from MOTD2.
Gordon Brown Scrooge was funny. For a bit.
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April 6th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Saw the bit about the Tories- not too bad.
I’m sure in the old days they’d have addressed Tibet. Got to be slower to make with Disney Pixar style animation. Less likely to be topical. Eusebiovic nailed it about the prominence of celebrity. Beckham sketch was awful. Madonna less bad but weak.
Won’t be tuning in next week. ITV are screwed.
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April 7th, 2008 at 12:13 am
@ Alan (42): Each photo has a license; this one says ‘All Rights Reserved’, so while you could download it and print it, it wouldn’t really be cricket. Best to get in touch with the owner.
[Reply]
April 7th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Great van shot, Alan. “Ceres”, excellent classical tag on the van. Anyone who says Camberwell is third world cannot read graffiti.
The last showing of the film about Angola at the SLG today was packed out. Very good short film about folks, oil, politics, life, death. Fab music. Viva the Portuguese.
It was like Sound of Music early this morning with the snow. Everything passes.
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April 7th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Thanks Peter.
If I use one of your would you mind?
Mark? Would you be happy for me to steal your pictures off flickr?
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April 7th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
If it’s for your own personal use, I have no problem with that at all. If you were planning to reprint it somewhere, that would be OK as long as nobody was making money off it and I was given credit.
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April 8th, 2008 at 1:37 am
WHAT WAS THAT POLICE OPERATION this afternoon in Camberwell? I have never seen so many huge coppers running around carrying machine guns before, huffing and puffing. What the heck was that? Why is it so low tech that they had to run and run, all panicky and pathetic? The chopper was overhead. If you were mugged round here, there would be no big show at all.
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April 8th, 2008 at 9:29 am
Missed that completely as I was at London Aquarium with family. Where and when did this happen?
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April 8th, 2008 at 10:36 am
@ Alan. YOU are welcome to download fullsize images from my stream as long as pic’s are attributed to me if published/shown elsewhere.
Didn’t see rozza activity, was at very important meeting in a pub. Look forward to grapevine updates.
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April 8th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Thanks Mark.
I see that the one you put on to take this p:ss out of me has received a bit of praise in the comments.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdodds/2296017670/
Very good.
I am doing up my shed and I am thinking of getting some Camberwell pictures in there. I would like to put some up in the house but I only have creative control over the shed.
I’m actually fourth in charge in my house.
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April 8th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
someone reported seeing a man with a gun at or near the cadleigh. vestry through to crofton were closed until 6pm.
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April 8th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Good news!
Mozarella e Pomodores is going to reopen next week, hoorah!
I walked past yesterday and there is a sign up saying so, there was also what looked like a copy of the old trusted menu in the window so it looks like it will be more of the same. Whilst Caravaggio is fabulous you cant beat a bit of traditional Italian every so often
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April 8th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Judging by their makeover it seems they agree that Caravaggio is fabulous.
It’s an out and out style rip off.
Good on them. Great to see a bit of competition in action. Can only be good for the consumer..
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April 9th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Aren’t they both owned by the same chap anyway?
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April 9th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Yeah I thought half the staff from ‘Cheese and Tomato’ had decamped to Caravaggio anyhow?
I didn’t rate the pizzas in M&P, they were always pretty dry, and an Italian restaurant that can’t cook a decent pizza.. well. Hopefully if they reopen it’ll reinvigorate their menu.
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April 9th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Pirates were the object of the police seige in Shenley Road on Monday afternoon. A Chinese pirate DVD den next to the Cadleigh pub was raided, a pirate’s firearm was discharged - maybe a copy, but a good one - and next thing, the chopper was up aloft and huge coppers were running down the road with enormous guns. The operation was comprehensive, to say the least. The phrase shock and awe comes to mind.
I would advise any pirates in a similar situation to hand over their copies of “Love, Actually” or “An Evening with the Dalai Lama” or whatever it is they flog round here and not to discharge a firearm at all. Once that happens, the police attention is extremely close. The officers on the scene were numerous and colossal. All the streets round about were closed for about two hours.
A neighbour later referred to the helicopter as a “lobster”. This may go to show that the police sieges in Camberwell are considerably more artistic than those which take place in Peckham.
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April 9th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I know that place; it used to belong to a friend of mine from the Cadeleigh; when he moved out I saw loads of Chinese people going in and out, so I asked him about it and he told me it was a DVD factory. Raided with guns. Well I never.
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April 9th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
It was a really big operation. It may be just a little legalistic detail that sets it off, that is to say, gunshootin’, but if there is gunshot, the full wealth of ordnance, helicopterage and beef comes into play. They do not take chances any more and why should they. My advice to anyone faced with armed police is, do not run, do not jump over the ticket barrier, do not make silly jokes, do not make sudden movements, do not carry a table leg in a sack, just think of how you can avoid the bum bandits in nick and maybe get to read Proust at last.
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April 10th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Doing (lost) time, you mean, Dagmar?
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April 10th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Who buys those DVDs? I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been sitting in Hermits Cave and had a shy Chinese woman sidle up to me with her bag ‘o’ stash, and yet I’ve never bought one, nor have I ever seen anyone else buy one, ever. Strange.
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April 10th, 2008 at 11:20 am
@16… I see what you mean. Here’s how I read it:
It was nothing story but they had to throw something up on the website because it would get hits from Google News.
It was the kind of piece someone could knock-up in a couple of hours and still generate the same amount of traffic as a piece that takes all day (or more) to research and write – it wasn’t worth someone coming down to Peckham to interview locals about Harriet Harmen.
The local content from the blog comments is a bonus in this kind of piece.
It seems to have been effective – the Times got 38 comments for a nothing piece that was quick and cheap to produce.
This is the economics of journalism.
Camberwell and Peckham is more or less the same place for most readers – so that’s not a huge issue.
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April 10th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
http://www.icsouthlondon.co.uk/tn/news.cfm?id=5091 Sounds like they have similar issues to ours. Nominations for the Mayor of Camberwell please…
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April 10th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
@52 Alan always a pleasure and that pic wasn’t really taking the wee wee out of you - it was in response to your saying something about me taking self portraits.
@54-58 Carragaggio anda Cheesa anda Tomata - both premises owned and originally set up by Frank the non Italian of Turkish extraction. Frank’s family connections include Golden Grill and he is the one who set up, dear dear I tire of recounting, Tadim. HE has other property interests around Camberwell. I believe he’s the landlord of the clothes shop on the corner of Camberwell Green crossroad lights that has yellow and red dummies in the window.
I keep hearing, and always have done, great reports about the frankly mediocre food in Frank’s establishments. As far as they go they are ok but what he does is pile is high and sell it cheap with scant regard to authenticity or quality of ingredients… For those who will immediately assume, in that very Camberwell way, that I’m just taking a pop at the opposition/competition because I can - WRONG - I very much admire Frank’s energy and verve and his gung ho attitude to getting things done. It’s a shame Frank doesn’t aim higher in quality and long term vision for his establishments. HE is about making money; making money; making money. Nothing wrong with that just would be a lot better for Camberwell, and business in the area generally, if he did it slightly differently. I don’t ever take a pop unless under extreme circumstances. A Methodist / Quaker provenance prevents it.
@63/@16 - Brixton and Camberwell are the same place for many people too. I tire of explaining this scenario as well.
@64 precisely.
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April 10th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
I called you on the narcissus thing, you took a picture of yourself and rubbed it in my face. That’s definite Mickey taking.
Don’t worry - I was impressed.
Also only recently clocked the writing in the reflection- Pose Aging Ltd. Nice one. To subtle for me… at first.
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April 10th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
… nevermind the DVD factory, has anyone else see the other local cottage industry in, ahem, action?
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April 10th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
@65 I completely and utterly disagree with you Mark, the friendly, welcoming service and delicious food I’ve always experienced at Mozz Pom and more recently Caravaggio’s, is in marked contrast to the dire treatment I and my party of twelve received a few Sundays ago in your establishment, where we were basically ignored for around forty five minutes before a sullen waitress took down our order incorrectly, served practically raw battered fish to one of my friends and nothing at all to three of the others, then went back to markedly ignoring us for a while as we tried to get her attention to find out where the missing orders were. When we did eventually get the uncooked fish replaced and the missing orders brought out there was no apology or explanation, we were basically made to feel as though we were a nuisance and it was a real drag serving us. To top it all off, when we ordered coffees at the end of the meal, she brought us the bill instead!
I wasn’t going to mention any of this as I didn’t feel it was necessarily fair to speak about one negative experience on a public forum, particularly when the owner is an active contributing member, but I don’t feel your comments about some of the other restaurants in Camberwell are necessarily fair either and my many experiences of those restaurants have always been very positive. I think Caravaggio’s is a fantastic addition to Camberwell and I’m thrilled that Mozz Pom is re-opening. I will continue to frequent both regularly.
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April 10th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I’d say the best resturant food around here is Ganapati on Bellenden Road in Peckham. Does that count as local to Camberwell?
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April 10th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
It’s local to me, and I live in Camberwell.
As for a favourite, I couldn’t tell you; only ate in M&P once and it was ok, nothing special. Caravaggio did ok pasta, great Tiramisu. S&D do the best fishcakes, George Canning the best burgers (and, formerly, pies; who made the decision to stop doing those?), Dark Horse do a nice dinner… I honestly couldn’t choose a favourite.
It used to be the tapas in the former Marbella hotel. God, I wish they’d open that again.
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April 10th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
@ Louie (67): No, but this sounds salacious; please tell!
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April 10th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Ganapati wins hands down. The Bear is second. I think Caravaggio is great on service.
Spot Amanda calling Mark on his greenhouse shot putt.
Sort the food out Mark. What would Gordan Ramsay say? It’s all very well getting Will Self to ponce through talking high brow solid stool but for crying out loud get the basics right. Fuck me! Art? Fuck me!
You could apply for kitchen nightmares..
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April 10th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Ganapati is without doubt excellent but is in Peckam The Bear does the best food in Camberwell but is too expensive to eat there as often as i’d like. However, the service in Caravaggios is superb - the food is far from great but at least it is priced as so, thus ramming in the punters and making it the only establishment round here with an atmosphere.
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April 10th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
@68 - Fair enough Amanda - I wish you had said something loud about your Sunday experience at S&D the time - and complained vociferously wither on the spot or to me via a forum - and I could have done something about it straight away. I’ll try to nail down the exact Sunday - check the rota and have words with FOH and kitchen bit late.
I went to M&P many times and never had a very good meal - the service was generally OK though. The food I had at Caravaggio’s was not good but in large portion and cheap.
Have to leave will come back to this to sort out Alan.
[Reply]
April 10th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
well, I understand that one of the houses along from the Cadeleigh is possibly being used as a ‘location’ for cinematic productions. Put it this way, if anyone has experience as a ‘fluffer’ then they might be hiring.
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April 10th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
No! Really? Wow! That’s my neck of the woods, I must ask around at the Cadeleigh.
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April 10th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
I know. I’ll set up a pseudonym and blog away happily about other bars and restaurants without fear of excoriating backlash. Well no. I’ll just carry on being open and honest. Amanda - please tell me which Sunday and I’ll raise it at work.
As a general imploration, if you get crap service or food at S&D - or anywhere else for that matter - SAY SO AT THE TIME. Do it calmly clearly and without embarrassment. Explain what was wrong and ask what is going to be done to compensate you. Even say you’re not prepared to pay but please please say so at the time not afterwards. Nothing ever will change if people don’t point out what’s not right.
@79 Dear Alan. I expect more of you than that kind of backhander even though you can say what you want anonymously and get away with it. The logical train from your comment is that I should not offer any opinion about any business locally that’s remotely connected with the industry I’m in unless it’s praise - or be accused of being full of crap because S&D lets people down sometime… Well Bollocks to that. If S&D lets other people down it’s letting me down. It is my job to make sure that 23 people get it right all the time. They don’t and that’s the way it is. If I donlt know they aren’t getting it right there’s not a lot can be done about it directly. Anyhow, while clearly we pissed Amanda right off, we have many, many happy customers who sing S&D’s praises on high – unsolicited… What backs this underlying solidity up is that I’ve been in business a damned sight longer than most pub businesses in Britain; and in one of the most difficult, socially underprivileged parts of the UK and that’s NOT because we get it wrong most of the time; it doesn’t make me glow all over with complacency wither; I absolutely hate it when we get it wrong like we did with Amanda…
As for your Kitchen Nightmares suggestion Alan, tongue in cheek though it is, I was approached in a round robin letter by the programme’s production team three years ago, when I had a particularly irritating head chef who would never listen to anything I said. Their analysis of S&D was that it is nowhere near their requirements for a tv show. Just so.
So with apologies to Amanda (Amanda - please get in touch on mark@sunanddoves.co.uk) while we f up sometimes, no other pub has the kind of events we have going on - anywhere. And that’s happening right here in SE5 Camberwell.
@73 as far as atmosphere goes, you obviously haven’t been to S&D very often.
And no one appears to have registered my admiration for Frank. Why’s that?
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April 10th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
I took a photograph of the sunrise on Waterloo Bridge today. Showers on the way, they say. I wondered if I should bung my cv to the porn studio, as the great current of the mighty Thames swept between my legs, so it felt.
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April 10th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Where’s the porn studio then Dagsie?
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April 10th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
I dunno, Louie knows.
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April 10th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
@77 Mark, I realise that you are obviously sincere in what you say, but I stopped going to the Sun & Doves because of the relentlessly sour bar-staff.
Initially, after a bad experience, I gave it a couple of months, and came back hoping the staff might have changed. There’d be new staff there and yet they’d still be pricks. Eventually, about three years ago, I stopped going completely.
You hire those staff, don’t you? Every so often someone comes on here and relates a terrible experience they’ve had in S & D, you come on and go, “I’ll sort it out,” but nothing ever changes. I always had the impression that the S&D hired failed art students rather than bar-staff.
I am in agreement with Amanda. Mozzarella had universally friendly staff, the food was good, and priced as such. I never had a bad experience in there.
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April 11th, 2008 at 12:01 am
The staff are not assholes any more. If anyone is still sullen I want to know.
My meals in Mozz were not good and although the service was polite and pleasant I got a bottle of wine on the house each time because of some major col up on their part. And I did not demand any compensation just in case you think I might be a deliberately difficult customer.
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April 11th, 2008 at 12:11 am
@ 81 Norman. Thanks for telling me now. The staff are not assholes anymore. If anyone is sullen or rude I want to know. And no I don’t hire the staff, maybe that’s my mistake. Nothing ever changes except we’re busy and I hear people saying very positive things - often - and I certainly don’t force them to, and we have regular regular customers who really like the place. So they;re getting it right sometimes at least. I repeat, if I know times incidents I will do something about it. If it’s a general ‘everyone is a shit’ then tell me how to deal with that. I’d lvoe to know.
I am not hyper critical of other businesses - I recount my experiences. My meals in Mozz were not good and although the service was polite and pleasant I got a bottle of wine on the house each time because of some major cock up on their part. Like one of the table not getting a meal. OR the wrong meal. And I did not demand any compensation just in case you think I might be a deliberately difficult customer. I’m not.
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April 11th, 2008 at 7:49 am
I’ve always found the staff in S&D really good. Sometimes overworked when the garden gets busy, but pleasant and helpful. Food slips now and again, but it’s a pub, with what I guess is a rapid turnover in the kitchen; so you should expect that. Best pub in SE5 by a mile.
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April 11th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Mark, it seems the logical conclusion is that people in glass houses should throw stones. By casting aspersions about much loved local eateries you have managed to glean some useful feedback for your own enterprise. Keep firing your catapult and you’ll probably draw out a few more complaints.
Complaining
I think we would all agree that complaining should be discrete and directed to the source rather than posted on public forums although we are probably all in breach of this to a greater or lesser degree.
Over reliance on customer feedback
I don’t accept your assertion Mark that you cannot control the quality of your product without customer feedback. I think you need to revisit the control and review process to ensure that you are identifying problems before they get to the customer.
That said, if you really do want feedback then you should establish a formal feedback process, ideally with an element of anonymity. Whether you ‘absolutely hate’ it or not, a lot of people, including myself are too shy to say anything at the point of sale and are more likely to just not come back, or worse pass on stories of their bad experience.
Sun and Doves Bar Staff
I agree that they are often art students rather than professional bar staff but I prefer this. Ideally you’d get good service from interesting people. That is the challenge for Sun and Doves management.
Whilst I am reluctant to be unnecessarily nice to Mark, I do think it is important that we acknowledge the importance of the Sun and Doves locally. It is exactly the image that I would like people to associate with Camberwell and Mark is right to point out that many businesses have tried and failed in the time that the Doves have soldiered on. I hope that one Day there is a Sun and Doves on every high street.
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April 11th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Discreet not discrete although depending on the size of the complaint it may be helpful to have it in discrete sections.
How do you eat an Elephant? Discretely -one piece at a time, or discreetly - because it’s on the endangered list and you don’t want to get caught.
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April 11th, 2008 at 11:29 am
Thank you Mark, you’re right we should have kicked up more of a fuss, it was Sunday 24th Feb and we were a party of twelve (plus a toddler and a baby) booked under my name. I guess one of the reasons I didn’t make more of a fuss was because I desperately wanted everything to go well, we were a group of friends who hadn’t all met up for ages, I chose the venue as I’d heard so many good things about it and I was embarrassed in front of my friends when things went wrong. I would never have said anything to be honest, as I put it down to an ‘off day’ and was quite willing to give it another go but my angry pregnancy hormones got the better of me.
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April 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Long time lurker first time poster.
Just wanted to say that the staff in the Sun and Doves have always seemed very nice and professional to me, if a bit unhurried on occasion. Having eaten there a few times, we have had only one problem, and that was resolved quickly and with no fuss when we raised it.
Two issues though:
1. Make the portions of chips a bit bigger please!
2. When there is a film on, why do customers deliberately choose that side of the bar to have a loud conversation, seemingly oblivious to the people around them trying to watch it? Perhaps some unobtrusive signage could resolve this to everyone’s satisfaction.
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April 11th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Welcome, Dante.
As far back as I can remember, the staff in the S&D have been a point of contention. Not bad, just slightly disorganised. We always prepare to spend slightly longer at the bar while waiting for someone to notice us.
I worked as a barman for a while and my manager taught me to always acknowledge when someone arrives at the bar - a quick bit of eye contact, a nod of the head, or a few words, to let them know they have been seen and will be attended to. It works better for you too, because you can keep an eye on the order that people arrived in, and not have to ask “who’s next?” all the time. That’s one rule I think you could drum in, Mark.
That aside, the S&D is still an outstanding member of Camberwell society, and deserves masses of credit for what it’s achieved. And it’s still the best place to go when the sun’s out.
I really should write another post soon.
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April 11th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Peter now that Mark has got the wifi sorted at the Sun and Doves, perhaps you should repair there and write, thereby threatening a few birds with one stone; writing, relaxing, and testing the surliness or otherwise of Mark’s much-debated staff.
BTW I’m at a bit of a loose end so if anyone does want to take me on as a restaurant test customer then do please PM me here. I can do both friendly or surly personae as required.
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April 11th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
@89 Spot on Peter, basic bar staff skills that are almost never practiced at S&D.
When bar staff ask “Who’s next?” I almost feel like walking out, this is, in my opinion, one of the most important skills bar staff need to learn.
Having worked in an extremely busy bar in Hong Kong for a year I know this isn’t a particularly difficult skill to acquire and one that earns you respect from customers.
Seriously, if you ask “who’s next” then the person who says “me” the quickest will get served not necessarily the person who’s been waiting the longest.
I have to say, Mark, that most bar staff I’ve encountered at S&D seem basically uninterested in providing a good service, in fact quite often they seem uninterested in even serving, for me it’s the perennial problem with the S&D and I know I’m not alone.
Nice garden though.
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April 11th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Can’t say I disagree with any of this recent posting above about S&D. IT pisses me right off as well…
Thanks for your frankness people.
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April 11th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
And many thanks for the words of support for S&D. Much appreciated.
Incidentally Mozz & Pom is reopening with the same ownership as before it shut. There has been some fall out over money not exchanging hands, rent proposals being very high and tenure issues and staff poached by a new business down the road… which was set up by the person who sold M&P in the first place.
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April 11th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Echo Mark’s comments about the Mozz. My regular drinking partner and foodie friend stopped going to the Mozz after one bad meal too many. We counted the pieces of mushroom in the “wild musroom risotto” and didn’t need the fingers of more than one hand. We raised it with the waiter who suggested that there were other places in Camberwell which might cater for more discerning palates. (For anyone interested the site was a Lyon’s Tea House for many years; I have no recollection of the times I was left outside in my pram while my mother enjoyed a cup of tea within. In this day and age she would have been arrested for child neglect.)
We tried Caravaggio’s not long after it opened and the highlights were being recognised by former Mozz staff and the on the house flaming sambucas. Sadly the food disappointed - for the price - bland in the main.
Of the places that have opened or revamped in recent years the Grove seems to have performed consistently above average. For those who remember the S&D in its previous incarnation who can forget the friendly Aussie bar staff, the only bright lights in said establishment, where corners were best avoided and the carpeted floor positively squelched.
The place formerly known as Willows has a request in to extend opening hours (until 2am I believe) and is seeking a licence for music. Armoured vests not provided.
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April 11th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Congratulations, Amanda Fuller! I hope the infant has taken and that you are both well. What good news for you, the blog, Camberwell and humanity! The gourmets and topers here seem to have overlooked this small matter!
The feeling of anticipation of a child waiting to be born in Camberwell is intense.
The infant swims around in the warm amniotic fluid - and I don’t mean the Adnams in the Sun & Doves, which for some reason is excellent - hearing the sirens on the streets, the police lobster in the sky, the macho bang-bang of gun-shootin’ and the rattlin’ of bling, the huffing & puffing of the local film industry, all the fuss and pother of the educated and articulate, but not quite really made it, semi-artistic, sub-bohemian mortgage slaves - and thinks, what is this Camberwell I can dimly hear them wittering on about, that am I coming into, after the Hilton-like ambience of King’s?
Ah, but the children themselves will decide, while we tattle on about which bistro’s langoustines are the superior, what the nature of the place will be.
Well done, Amanda. You are one of the true soldiers of Camberwell. We salute you!
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April 11th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
As a rule of thumb I tend to avoid any establishment with an Italian theme - It’s not that I don’t think Italian food isn’t great because it is - but the generic bastardisation of things like pizza and pasta has meant that any cretinous simpleton can open an establishment that does this (often rather badly) and refer to it as Italian
Spanish and Portuguese food is slightly more complex and specialised so you don’t get as many shiesters thinking that it’s a doddle to cook and opening a restaurant
Having said that, Paella (a very poor, unimaginative example of Iberian food) seems all the rage at the moment, along with Chorizo (it’s a new taste sensation!)
Pubs should stick to traditional British Pub Food
ie:
Pea and Leek soup
Steak and Kidney Pudding/pie
Lancashire Hotpot
Fish/Scampi and Chips (or even fishcakes)
Sunday Roast
etc etc
It’s easy
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April 12th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Yes, but Amanda has a bun in the oven.
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April 12th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Stuck in the house tonight whilst Emma goes off galavanting. Think I’ll order takeaway from Indiaah.
Seldom mentioned on here but I have only had positive experiences both eat in and take out..
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April 12th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
No need to be shy, Alan, that’s exactly what happened to Amanda, eat in, take out, all that. No wonder she is up the duff. How wonderful!
Talking of fecund, Buster Martin, French boy, orphan in Cornwall, boy in London, married at 14, father of 17, runs tomorrow in the marathon at the age of 101. Where shall we meet to cheer him on?
In out shake it all about do the hokey cokeeeeeee-ah!!!
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April 12th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Good luck to our Buster. I reckon he’s about 80.
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April 12th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Did a tour of Camberwell early tonight. My report from the frontline –
1) a bottle of Jim Beam bourbon now costs only £14.99 in most of the off-licences in the ‘hood. Pre-Christmas it was £18. This can only be a good development.
2) that annoying red van has been removed from the top of Camberwell New Road. Work is now proceeding apace on the extension to the Camberwell Bus Garage. Hooray!
3) Redstar was not open at 8pm, but there was a band rehearsing inside and they sounded quite good. Maybe it only opens up at 10pm?
4) Cash Converters has been taken over by the Rock of Redemption church. What does this signify, culturally, in an Umberto Eco-type way? I have no idea.
A pleasant sojourn, all in all.
Roast in The Bear tomorrow at lunchtime, big footie game in Hermits Cave at 4pm, then back home to finish off the bourbon. I agree with Alan Dale — what more do you need to be happy?
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April 13th, 2008 at 12:16 am
@98 Alan and Indiaaaahhh - he’s the owner of Mozz & Pom.
@101 Norman. The red van could well return. It was probably on hire.
Planning consent has been (I think) granted for the cash converters site - the whole parade of shops - to be demolished and replaced with housing.
Lidl do a very good 40% Bourbon with labelling that’s quite like Jim Beam’s for £8.99.
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April 13th, 2008 at 11:27 am
But isn’t that like those strange bottles of vodka that are sold round here that are “quite like Smirnoff”, but end up putting you in the Maudesley for a two-week stay?
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April 13th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Best vodka on sale locally? Wyborowa @ Temple of Bacchus
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April 13th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
98 - so Alan you weren’t at the ‘art happening’ at SLG last night then?
it was pretty good, but i saw cabaret voltaire doing pretty much the same thing twenty-some years ago. in fact richard kirk of the cabaret voltaire is curating a retrospective of the sheffield scene this very weekend, in sheffield.
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April 13th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
The Hermit’s Cave has started to charge entry for the footie. I do mind, the more so since I don’t think the place had been full of folk ogling the screen and not ordering from the bar. It just seems a bit greedy and makes me feel less warm about the place. Please someone tell me I’m being unreasonable so I can go back with a glad heart.
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April 13th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
You are being unrealistic. Will that do?
Drew - No I wasn’t. Any chance of advance notice of ANYTHING good on here please.
Seems like one guy owns half of Camberwell’s businesses. Or two guys.
I’d like to be an entrepeneur but I’m not rich or poor enough. Maybe one day.
I agree with Norman Maine agreeing with me. Happiness is a town called Camberwell.
All’s well. Even if cash converters has undergone a road to Damascus style conversion.
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April 13th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
yeah unrealistic rather than unreasonable.
Did they not just enforce a minumum spend?
Sometimes you have to do something to ensure that you don’t get footy mad malingerers loitering and taking up valuable pub space.
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April 13th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Maybe. I thought it was £6 and one drink but pride prevented me from closely examining the blackboard outside and now you have sown a seed of doubt. Good, so perhaps I can go back.
I always wondered what those “no loitering” signs meant, now I know.
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April 13th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
SKY. If Brendan’s doing Sky legally it’ll be in the region of 10-11K a year for the licence. That is a shit load of cost to show footie. That’s why I don’t do Sky at S&D. Apart from finding it morally repugnant that it can’t be shown on national.
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April 14th, 2008 at 12:01 am
It’s £6 entry, and you get two drinks’ vouchers. So, basically, if you have two pints it’s free.
Also, Dyos says, “I don’t think the place had been full of folk ogling the screen and not ordering from the bar.” Sorry to contradict you, Dyos, but that’s exactly what Hermits was full of pre-Christmas. It had got to the point where people were barging in at the door just to look at the footie, and didn’t even buy a Coke.
I, like you, was a little bit put out at first, but now I realise why Brendan started doing this.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:29 am
A new Indian deli/takeaway/cafe has opened on Southampton Way. It’s run by an outfit called JJ Caterers who seem to have a good business going catering for events and weddings. I’ve not been in there myself yet but, from peering through the window, it looks quite a nice place and was pretty busy for most of the weekend. It’s great to see someone taking a chance in this part of town.
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April 14th, 2008 at 9:55 am
The Cadeleigh have a minimum spend for football too, although I’ve yet to see them enforce it.
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April 14th, 2008 at 11:03 am
@111 well, if that’s how it was then, I agree, it makes sense.
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April 14th, 2008 at 11:10 am
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/cpz-at-myatts-field-park.html
Hi guys,
please can you take a look at the link attached, it is for a petition to get a proper parking zone around the Myatts Field Park area. The age old problem of random Londoners using the FREE parking for the close commute to the hospital/bus garage and Oval Tube station. We need to free up these roads.
Please sign if this affects you.. Please sign even if it doesn’t.. get your friends to sign!! we are aiming for 150 signatures as the council will only take notice if we can prove this affects enough people. Will also post on the SE5 forum.
thanks
includes
Knatchbull Road
Halsmere Road
Brif Street
Cormont Road
Flodden Road
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April 14th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Morning all,
I had my first proper walkabout in Camberwell on Saturday, went to the Castle for lunch (ok, liked the decor, food was a bit bland) and then to Seymours for a coffee until the downpour stopped, lovely, I’ll be going back there. The Castle’s menu is too fussy for it’s own good I feel, if Gordon was to go in there he’d do his usual of telling them to simplify their menu and concentrate on a few good basics they could do really well, and not a long menu of frilly posh things that are a bit bewildering.
Had to go to Dulwich Village on Sunday for lunch in Piaf, the mother was visiting and didn’t respond well to my suggestion of visiting the Bear, or the S&D after a dismal meal we had there frankly ages ago, but she’s old and holds a grudge (Sorry Mark, I personally love your pub). Piaf was ok, food not too bad but the miserable waitress who served us had no people skills whatsoever and the 12.5% service they added to the bill was a bit cheeky, there were only three of us too.
Sorry this hasn’t been very interesting or even pertinent, my adventures in Camberwell serve only to entertain myself.
P.s. disappointed to see that the interesting looking Amarylis has styled itself as a football pub.
oh well.
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April 14th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
…and any more reviews of said Amarylis apart from Mark’s sometime back? Just seems so empty whenever I pass that I feel intimidated to go in! Shame, I’ve never seen so much graft go into a redecoration — I lost count after about 5 coats of primer had gone on the exterior walls.
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April 14th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Went into Amarlyis with my wife. It had football blaring from TV’s at both ends of the bar. The volume was turned up so high that we couldn’t hold a conversation over it. We drank our drinks very quickly and left. There were only two other people in the whole pub (both single men staring at the TV’s). It seems that it would have catered better for this single male market in it’s previous incarnation as an ‘old boozer’.
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April 14th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Coffee@61 opening next to Indiaah?
Is that the same chain as coffee@bricklane?
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April 14th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
genfink @116
The Castle used to do excellent food about 2-3 years ago - simple pub food done really well including magnificent sunday roasts…
Unfortunately a shower of buffoons took over and decided to change what was working well and now it’s just like any other clueless operation - a real shame as it used to be a great place to relax on a sunday afternoon…
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April 14th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Yeah,
The Castle aint nowt to write home about… I live on the same block and they play some terrible music at really obnoxious volume on the weekend.
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April 15th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Why doesn’t anyone ever mention the Boar’s Head on Wyndham Road? It’s only a small pub, I know, but it has been serving exquisite dinners for years. Their puddings are marvellous. Their guest ales are amongst the best cellared in Britain. Their wines are well priced and come with apt recommendations for partnering food. The lighting is subdued and soothing, the atmosphere intimate and comforting. Even the pork scratchings are made from the jolliest pigs ever to be processed in the West Midlands. Ambience? Yes, you can hear that, too, this is Camberwell after all, nee-nar-nee-nar!
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April 15th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Never been there.
Will look into it.
Are they child friendly?
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April 15th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Myself and Ms Standingby have been to the Amarylis to eat. Only the once mind. I had “organic” chicken and chips which which were very greasy but alright. MsSt