Bad news Monday
Published by Peter | Filed under Crime, Development, Transport
First bit of bad news: Network Rail are planning to drop the London Bridge to Victoria route, meaning Denmark Hill’s usefulness will be reduced by about a third. As a ‘consolation’, services that we can get to by changing trains will be increased; not actually that useful when the trains to get to those services are reduced by half.
I had a pretty strong feeling this would happen, as soon as they began the ‘public consultation’ — a sop to regulators when a decision has already been made. Network Rail accepts that the proposals contain “significant passenger disbenefits”, but doesn’t care.
Second bit of bad news: A report on the radio says that a woman has been stabbed to death in County Grove. Can’t find any details, or indeed any confirmation, of that yet, so know idea what’s involved. It’s far too early to draw any conclusions yet, or to make any connections with any other crimes in the area, but at the very least it’s an unneccessary loss of life, and more ammunition for those who’d like to paint the area as a crime-ridden slum.
Update: Some more detail about this incident; seems to have been a domestic rather than street crime. Exactly why I was cautious about jumping to conclusions.
Anyway, do enjoy the rest of your day.
If I read that article right, there will no trains between Denmark Hill and London Bridge? WTF.
Trying to wean myself off The Hermit so I went to the Munky last night. Fock me that place is awful, just awful.
Looking for a quiet drink and we were affronted by a weird hyped up vibe with red-faced blokes who looked like they’d been in the Buckle all day. Irritating, wired barmaid, overly loud music. Wasn’t even cheap. Never again. I think I said this last time I went in there on a Sunday. But really I mean it this time.
Strange as from the outside it looks like a nice, independent, almost boho bar.
Dark Horse next I think.
Camberwell Station Road was closed off by the police on Sat night, about 12 — 1am, then no sign of anything on Sunday afternoon, anyone know what that was about? Maybe that was linked to the County Grove thing.
That’s worrying, when I am out late
that’s where I get off the bus from Victoria, I always felt it felt quite safe. Sadly not.
@D-MAN: Yep, that’s what I understand as well: no more London Bridge train. You have to get a train to Peckham Rye and change there, but the service to Peckham Rye will be reduced by two trains per hour.
@genfink & Peter — a senseless waste of life. Obviously, the parked cars along County Grove would have made it easier for an assailant to hide, and more difficult for a victim to escape. It is possible to “design out” crime, and where better to start than the streets?
@D-MAN and Peter — The London Bridge link could have been saved as part of a campaign for local rail services in areas with deprived communities. However, with no interest from the rail service campaigners for reopening Camberwell Rail, it was revealed as a minority commuter campaign which could be easily ignored by the Kentish high rollers.
The stabbing in County Grove took place in a house, not on the street: http://tinyurl.com/6dvhwr
Apparently Boris Johnson is also looking to scrap the tram… that would’ve been excellent for North Camberwell and North Peckham.
This article cites Liberal Democrat London assembly member, Caroline Pidgeon, who lives locally.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7585558.stm
I’m normally unimpressed with the Liberal Democrats in Southwark – what with the kid’s museum, etc – but I’ve met Caroline socially and as well as being fiercely ambitious, her heart seems in the right place.
@5 designing out crime, perhaps we should get rid of front gardens as that is where 2 fleeing robbers hid on our street the other week in hot pursuit by the police the police dog got one but not the other.
One was hiding behind a tree, maybe the police could demand the felling of those to design out crime. These tree lined streets obstruct the view and make it easy for people to hide, and block the street lights from the path. But I would rather live with them than demand they are removed for my safety.
The tree in Lucas Gardens is due to be designed out today. At what time, I don’t know. Tree fellers are probably not contracted to make the event a happening, which is a pity. Health and safety. Stand clear, please.
Bel Air Park is Southwark’s only Grade II listed landscape. Further on there is a fantastically wide road, Lancaster Avenue. On Saturday night a 15-year-old kid on a scooter was killed there in a police chase. This morning, three youths were arrested and handcuffed a few yards away. Time for term time to start.
@5 Always with the cars. You should note that the stabbing took place in a house, next to a part of County Grove where parking is not even allowed. For your information at least 60% of County Grove never has cars parked a long it’s edges anyhow. While i believe you do often say things that make sense, your ability to blame cars for nearly every negative thing is unbelievable. Somehow parts of london with decent local shops, lower crime rates and nicer looking streets manage this despite having a significantly higher number of parked cars. I don’t even know why i am saying this as i know we will never agree.
How about a dug-out car made from a tree trunk, with all components carved from the same tree, running on refined squirrel piss? At first people laughed, but when they saw squirrel-piss power in action, everyone wanted a dug-out. “Gimme a squirrel-piss dug-out” were the words every forecourt salesman from Park Lane to Penge soon learned to dread from the dudes trading in their Cayennes.
What did the tree in Lucas Gardens do so wrong? Get too old?
Windy out. A house on my ride home has a wind turbine doing good business.
Wonder if it might be this guy:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/house-and-home/property/donnachadh-mccarthy-the-home-ecologist-809426.html
Coleman Road
The notice on the tree says it is rotten. That tree that killed the van driver in Clapham Common a month ago was known to be rotten for a long time by the locals. A dead tree is a serious business. The notice does give you a helpline number to call if you are affected by any of the issues contained in the notice.
Amazing to think that we’re getting the benefit of all these majestic trees in London’s parks and public spaces hundreds of years after they were planned.
But yeah, wouldn’t want a dead one falling on my van.
What do you all think of the standard of policing in our area? When Andrew Pratt was knifed in my street (right outside my flat, heaven help us), we were visited and interviewed the following day while the road was sealed off as a crime scene and a seemingly highly professional forensics search was undertaken. Despite this interview we’ve had a letter this week saying the police have ‘identified our house as useful in their enquiry’ and that they’ve been frustrated in their attempts to contact us. We have of course already been interviewed at length… and by the way told them we couldn’t be much help as we were both out that night. A case of the one hand not knowing what the other is doing, or just typical incompetence?
And on the subject of crime, here’s a list of London gangs. My favourite local gang name is Mash Force. Are Gold Smith Estate and Gold Smth Estate really separate gangs, or a typo?
Isn’t there a recent Camberwell gang called SE5?
How come none of the SE5 gangs have links to YouTube films or other web pages? Come on, you’re an embarrassment to Southwark. Try and keep up. Take some tips from Hackney.
In an ideal world, I suppose, they’d take all their activities online and do nothing more dangerous than put out ever more ludicrously macho (and, it has to be noted, surprisingly camp) mini-films posing with guns and big dogs to a thumping soundtrack.
Thanks — many — to those kind enough to say they have had good experiences at The Sun and Doves recently. Much appreciated and passed on to the people responsible for getting the comments — the staff; Thanks.
Substantially losing the Denmark Hill train service is yet another typical bad joke for SE5.
The stabbings and shootings in this area surely put it ahead of Peckham and Brixton in the violent crime stakes?
Donnachadh McCarthy consulted S&D on environmental stuff for a couple of years and has a wind turbine.
Rotten trees are dangerous to life in urban settings and should be removed but replaced by new trees to carry on the good work.
Gangs, I’ve seen quite a bit of tagging with SE5 in it. Struggled to get the gang side of it though. In an ideal world they’d all be avid street and graffiti cleaners, outdoing each other in their plentiful spare time to clean harder and longer than the other gang.
The tree of heaven in Lucas Gardens has come down. It is an aggressive, invasive tree, like the knotweed or rhododendrons. It was called tree of heaven by Indonesian islanders, because it reached for the sky quick. Used in Chinese medicine, including for spermatorrhea.
Dagmar — thanks for keeping us informed. We look forward to its imminent replacement by a more pacific cultivar in the red route pollution hotspot that is Lucas Gardens.
Gnomee, interesting to see the felling of a long-lived broadleaf offered as a direct comparator for the “loss” of an on-street residents-only car parking space. The approach you satirically advocate — to fell healthy mature trees with a girth greater than the average lurker’s, was in fact adopted wholesale in the Myatt’s Fields “regeneration” to make it safe innit.
I spoke to a tree feller, well, there was only one of him, who was very informative. They were also taking away the big log, as we call it in the Dagmar family, which was also a tree of heaven, I think, a species which suckers strongly — there were soon great shoots sprouting from the base when the tree was cut down after the night-time people had set fire to it. The feller said they had cut steps into a similar fallen tree in Sunray Gardens — kids play on them, he has seen, to this day. The big log was great, but not from a health and safety point of view. These are the days we live in, where danger and difference are eliminated, kind of rightly, sort of not. There is a plan for the area where the trees have gone. Quadron and Gristwood & Toms were the contractors, though I don’t know who were responsible for which bit. The trees of heaven were big, but maybe not that old, because they grow so rapidly. They quickly “escaped cultivation” once brought here from China. The book “A Tree Grows in Brooklyn” features a tree of heaven which grows through concrete and is an urban thriver — classed as a pest or weed or whatever the word is, here and in the US. The Wikipedia entry is as big and weird as the tree itself.
I defer to your greater knowledge of logs in Lucas Gardens.. But can vouch for the one in Sunray. Shame they couldn’t do similar in Lucas. Wasn’t Lucas orginally designed to give solace and succour to the inhabitants of the adjoining asylum? Not much changes.
Isn’t the big log where alkies and junkies go to spend a morning?
Camberwell House asylum, yes, across the road from the gardens, which are now named after the mayor who died in office just after the war, when the gardens were given to Camberwell. The tree of heaven’s uses in Chinese medicine include for mental illness, where the bark is steeped in young boy’s piss. Or maybe alkie and junkie piss. Yes, that is where some challenged people go, but also children, it is usually fine.
There’s was an interesting anthropological study done in New York in the 90s on how park space is informally divided up between dog walkers, drug abusers, families, joggers, homeless, sun bathers, teenage lovebirds, etc.
Turned out there’s room for everyone, and like attracts like (cosmic law No. 1) to specific areas of the park.
Was the Lucas Gardens festival on this year? Must of missed it. That’s my favourite local event.
Looks like somebody has bought one of the houses on Windsor Walk.… I saw scaffolding up on one of the houses…
I just came across this web site
http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/southwark/camberwell/windsor-walk-1900.htm
There are some nicely thin-cut slabs of tree of heaven timber in Lucas Gardens suitable for cabinet work. The wood is pale yellow and satiny, hard when seasoned properly. The leaves of the tree of heaven are used to cultivate shantung or pongee silk, a raw silk that is less lustrous but stronger than mulberry silk and which is hard to dye but will take a print well. The caterpillars spin a mile of silk each. The blossom of the tree really pongs and has given rise to various names for the tree. So it wasn’t the alkies and junkies that were ponging, it was the tree of heaven blossom. Maybe that’s what they told people and, though rebuffed and rejected, avoided and abhorred, were absolutely right.
Great news about Windsor Walk. Look forward to seeing it restored.
Friends of Peckham Rye Park Fair is tomorrow 12-5pm, tea tent, food tent, beer tent, stalls, children’s fun.
Lottie Child was excellent talking at the SLG last night about inventive use of the urban environment for play. She can talk the critical theory, create ideas and just do it, awesome.
Just a quick reminder before we all disappear off for the weekend, the Camberwell Leisure Centre meeting is on Monday evening at 7pm at the St Giles Church Hall, Benhill Road.
Please come along and lend your support!
Thanks
Please see this notice by Paulet on SE5 Forum about a forthcoming public seminar on the cross river tram next Tuesday.
Amongst others, Richard De Cani, Head of Major Projects at TfL will be there to discuss “overcrowding on the transport network in the north-south corridor”, a phrase which should appear underneath Camberwell’s entry in the Encyclopaedia Britannica.
This is a heavyweight meeting with all the local government powers necessary to solve SE5’s main problems — stemming from transport and planning — gathered under one roof. It dwarfs all recent opportunities for input from the public and community organisations in Camberwell, including anything organised for the Baths.
I recommend that all local community activists and those professing a “love” for Camberwell take an interest.
Up yours Reg!
Succinct, concise, brief, blunt, bluff, brisk, brusque, frank, gruff, abrupt, curt.
Appropriate
Fitting, apt, apposite, adroit, deft…
http://www.virtualnorwood.com has no unpleasantnesses on it, just normal things, none of this urban Camberwell grit. Last Saturday night a 15-year-old youth was killed on his scooter in a police chase, but the blog will not talk about it. There is a large shrine by a lampost on Lancaster Avenue where it happened. One of the messages reads, “You Partied so hard you Deserve the Rest.” That was a great thing to say.
If I really loved Camberwell I’d become a cycle riding, tree hugging, shopkeeper vigilante and wage a war on motorists.
Even though I agree with most of what you say Reg I find myself hoping you fail. Where are you going wrong?
Maybe you need to go public. Put a face to the irksome online persona. Might back fire though. We’re not all as handsome as Mark ‘is that my reflection in the shop window? Crash bang wallop what a picture!’ Dodds.
Funny that I was thinking yesterday I miss Alan Dale (rather than Allendale which is near where I was brought up, where the biggest habitation is Alston which used to have more pubs per head than any other town in Britain) and came to make a post saying “Alan where are you?” and there you are being so eloquent about meself. Odder things do happen rarely.
This is about to be a genuine invitation to everyone reading, posting and lurking on Peter Gasston’s wonderful site to come to the Sun and Doves and have a good time.
I met my half century on 7 August when I was with family abroad. This apparently major event in my life passed without much ado other than a rather good lunch in a rather impressively cheap (as in good value) restaurant called Casa Chico near Lagos in the Algarve. And subsequently a Microlight flight along the whole southern coast back across land which was one of the most energising things that’s happened to me for a very long time.
SO on Saturday 13 September I am having a surprise 50th birthday celebration at The Sun and Doves.
This is being organised by my girlfriend and my business partner and I don’t know about it, so keep it quiet please. You definitely didn’t hear about it from me. OK? But it would be nice to meet then if you’re around next weekend and can make it.
Apparently there’s going to be a DJ and wine and things and everything for a good party.
Oh yes, here’s a link to the invitation: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thesunanddoves/2830769504/sizes/o/
@34 — Reg, it’s funny, but I agree with Alan on your last posting. Loftiness is truly your natural state. If you really are trying to get people to attend the tram meeting(& I remain to be convinced),get off the soapbox, please.
Many happy returns Mark. 50 years old? Shit the bed!
I thought it was odd that you holiday in the Algarve every year– should have realised.
Still got it though.. Enjoy your surprise.
Thanks Alan, my own bed was shat a long time ago, and the Algarve has perennially beckoned because my in-laws live there which is a bonus and a minus depending on how I approach it. So far it’s been approached from my point as a very good value get away from the pressures of tied pub life but latterly I have been considering whether the downside really outweighs the up. On balance I’ve had way more than enough of the Algarve, as I am allowed to see it, and will not be doing such summery sojourns there in future unless far briefer or on terms more equitable to me.
My invitation to all to come to the surprise party is genuine and open. No pressure to introduce yourselves to me — or to say thanks for the invite — just come along and have a good time if you’re available. It will be fun and the wine, certainly will be good and the beer I provide will not be bought through the tie, bottled and of quality.
It would be particularly nice to see Reg there if he can make it.
Should we have a secret Camberwell online sign that we give each other? maybe a masonic handshake type thing?
I will be in Spain and so unable to attend.
Costa del Sol?
I guess the number 35 will become a little more crowded then
there was an article about kings college hospital in today’s paper — apparently it deals with more victims of knife crime than any other — http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/sep/07/knifecrime.ukcrime
Well a small positive camberwell story. A friend of mine, a self professed life long north Lononder has, through various circumstances found herself living in Camberwell.
We hosted her 30th birthday/welcome to South London party in the Sun and Doves on Saturday and all went very well — Camberwell behaved itself and even the most fearful north lonond/out of town guest had a lovely time and uneventful journeys and very very impressed with both the S&D and camberwell in general (well except for the Americans who got off the 35 so early they were sill in Elephant and Castle!!)
Mark — re: the 50th birthday party — i would love to coem but i am expected in Kent on the same day for my Uncles surprise 70th birthday party!
“Shit the bed” – consequences of dinner in Safa? Or the Viet place? A long session in the Silver Buckle?
I’ll get my coat.
To make up for my last unsavory post, we had a great weekend in Camberwell.
School’s back. Normal stuff is happening all around. Like it.
One thing about the Internet though, you can’t really talk about all the great stuff there is for kids, in case some freak figures you out. I suppose it’s safe enough to mention we went to the South London Gallery – you are allowed to climb all over the place, literally.
It was the last day of that exhibit, but I overheard that the new show (upcoming) will keep the vibe going, with platforms and ladders installed among the art exhibits.
Woa, that Guardian article is depressing.
Our eldest is coming up to secondary school age. Where can you send kids to get an education that will give them the academic capability to compete in this global, knowledge economy? Should we move?
Good find, Mumu. There has been filming at King’s A&E, too. There will be a documentary on the telly about knife crime, with the staff at King’s explaining what really happens to people when they’re knifed.
The SLG show I thought was OK — I too went on the last day, Sunday, and chortled about the name of the chap who made the video, Gustavo Artigas. Artigas! There’s a lot of that round here, it’s called critical theory.
Still, Lottie Child I thought was the star of the show. She is extremely interesting, disciplined, skilled, humorous and inspirational about creative play in the streets. She will conduct two of her street training sessions starting from Peckham Square on 20 September at 2pm and 4pm. Be there or be square. If you are square, she will round you, don’t worry about that!
Hello, sorry to break the discussion. Would anyone know a reliable local plumber that they would recommend?
@ Alan: Nope. Via de la Plata.
@ A lurker: This guy was recommended on the SE5 forum.
YEs I can indeed, I second that recommendation for Maurice Yeoman 07837163978
He came to my flat to give me a quote this morning, friendly polite, punctual and reasonably priced (though I don’t think he’s CORGI registered)
I had an awful time on the bog this morning. My guts spilt into the pan. But I grabbed my toothbrush and shoved ‘em back up.
@49 Mumu — thanks for the link.
If the govt was REALLY serious about knife crime, then perhaps tackling it in Peckham, Brixton and Camberwell would be a good place to start.
Perhaps putting up airport style scanners at the gates of every school in the area and also setting them up randomly in high street areas and marching anyone under 20 through them.
I suspect most adults living in the area would support this for a limited period of time, to weed out the knife carriers?
Do you think? But then again, it costs money and doesn’t translate into votes, I suppose.
The Via de la Plata looks sublime, Peter, the shining path, the silver blade of beauty and peace, trade and intercourse.
Went along to the Camberwell Baths/Leisure Centre meeting this evening. Besides a few problems with a malfunctioning microphone I thought it was pretty interesting. As each bid was only a design proposal they were all relatively vague about costs and other specific detail.
Here are my thoughts on the 3 proposals and presentations:
1) Fusion — pretty lacklustre presentation with very little detail. Seemed to be keeping the main pool building and then just developing 64 residential units out the back. I may be wrong but their design photo seemed to show them pedestrianising Artichoke Place (road leading to the main entrance). Their main point was that that their team had done the work on the refurbished Brockwell Lido and that was very successful.
2) Ash Sakula — plan to retain pool and leisure facilities, put in Russian/Turkish baths in the basement and create 26 residential units, some of which would be 4/5 bed houses. A much more professional presentation and from what I could gather they will be keeping as much of the original structure as possible. Theirs seemed like a more innovative design compared to Fusions but they didn’t really mention who would be running the pool/leisure centre. Just checked out their website and they have been involved in some interesting projects: http://www.ashsak.com
3) English National Ballet — a bit more of a radical plan in that they want to do away with the pool (turning it into studio space) but keep some leisure facilities. Only plan to have 15 residential units so less extra building. They want Camberwell to be the home of the ENB and they want to engage the community through dance, music and movement. I’d say they were probably the reason why most people went along and they got a bit of a hostile reception, however I thought the MD gave a very impressive talk about what they could bring to Camberwell.
The question was asked whether or not the pool could be kept and ENB still come and make use of the other space as their dance studio. Unfortunately unless the council stump up the cash to refurbish the pool, ENB don’t have the money to do that.
If it was up to me, I’d go for the ENB option as it would definitely help to put Camberwell on the map and it also fits in nicely with Camberwell being seen as a place for the arts. Yes, the pool does go, but I think sometimes you have to make sacrifices if you want progress. Maybe the schools who currently use the pool can use those facilities at Peckham Pulse and Dulwich Leisure Centre which aren’t too far away. Or alternatively they kids can take dance classes instead of going swimming.
Unfortunately I’d say Fusion will probably get it as theirs was apparently the highest ranked submission (don’t ask me how) and they already run a few SE London leisure centres and have probably built up some decent connections in the Council. With Southwark Council ditching Camberwell as it head office shortly, we need something else to spark this area into life and what better than being the home of a national ballet company?
If anyone else went along, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts?
@41 Mark,
Saw you at the Camberwell Baths meeting last night — there’s no way you’re fifty!!!
why do I not have permission to edit my own comment, I only wanted to add an RSVP to the party invite. I can’t come I’m afraid, I’m at the Proms in the Park that evening, which is a shame because I would have definitely liked to attend!
Fusion are dire in my experience. Management and administration at Peckham Pulse is appalling. And they seem to have sanitised out of Brockwell lido all that was good and ropey (the West Indian man on the tannoy, the Judge Dredd lifeguards). I think Fusion is like Greenwich Leisure: a Trust set up by the Local Boroughs to handle leisure facilties floated off by the LBs. They retain the usual LB levels of service, though (anyone remember “The Pool” skit from The Day Today?) Would be a great shame to lose another pool. Don’t ENB do synchronised swimming?
Who else went? PK’s excellent summary suggests that one of the pack-‘em-in residential schemes will get it. The ballet sounds great, though, would bring a bit of aspiration and excellence to Camberwell rather than dumbing.
I didn’t manage to get along to teh meeting — work intervening as always.
I woiuld be keen on the Ash Sakula proposals as i know their work and they produce some very nice stuff. Also teh Turkish Bath model has worked very well in Ironmonger Row Baths, Islington and also in Tower Hamlets. However key to me supporting it would be the appointemnt of a decent organisation to run the baths and ensuring they are at a price locals can afford.
PK -
I was there last night, I agree it was an interesting evening. I came away from it ultimately disappointed that there was no one-size-fits-all solution, although not at all surprised, it was naive of me to hope for one.
I also agree about the ENB, I was really impressed with them, their enthusiasm and drive and I agree that having their national and ceremonial home here would be a great thing. I good better vibes off the ENB people rather than the architect they were working with.
However they were very honest and stated up front that they would be getting rid of the swimming pool, and that is a subject a lot of people feel very stongly about so I fear we will have to wave goodbye to them.
Nice write-up, PK.
The place is such a dump at the moment, anything would be better (apart from Fusion, natch). There’s a horrendous stench in the place and lack of basic cleanliness.
I’d give it to some fluffy squatters to run as community centre. Tofu breakfasts, juggling classes, Linux workshops, etc
Can’t believe they trying to close Spike in Peckham. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/aug/27/housing.communities
The council has truly lost it. Hopefully the Town Hall can be turned into something worthwhile when they’re gone. Maybe the credit crunch will make it less appealing to turn into shit-box apartments.
Was there last night as well and although an interesting evening I was disappointed at how poorly the councillor in charge of the decision-making process (Lewis Robinson?) explained the history and the next steps. “Going through the motions” has never seemed a more apt process
My initial views?
Fusion/PTE — limp presentation; safe option for the council as existing arrangement whilst the design can always be changed in the next phase; personally I’m be very concerned about the current poor Fusion management and would like to see them held to any current SLAs before they promise new ones…
Ash Sakula — good-looking designs and reasonable presentation; almost too honest in stating where the new flats would be as people reacted badly to that; loved their approach of cultivating a community trust to run the revamped centre and would like the council to pick that up whoever is selected
ENB — great passion and enthusiasm and good to see such an organisation showing an interest in the area; think it’s too large a step change for the centre of Camberwell
We’re reasonably new residents to the area, so not quite up to speed with what’s happening, did I hear right that the council will be making a decision in October on whether the swimming pool needs to be kept?
D-MAN @ 53
“Our eldest is coming up to secondary school age. Where can you send kids to get an education that will give them the academic capability to compete in this global, knowledge economy? Should we move?”
No, need to move you can send them to Mary Datchelor or Wilson’s School for Boys — Whoops, they were abolished by the government forced to close and re-located in Surrey as private schools.
Still, I’m sure all those M.P’s who voted to abolish them are very proud of the subsequent legacy that they have left behind for the citizens of Camberwell and Southwark…Nothing like closing off avenues to a BETTER education to ALL kids who happen to live in one of the poorest boroughs in London
They knew a thing or two about a thing or two — and no mistake
Let’s thank them for their stirling efforts in knowing what is best for us all
I know I certainly appreciated it — getting taught by woefully inadequate supply teachers for 6 years in the brave new world of all-inclusive state education
Marvelous!
Nice houses though!
Please clarify Camberwell Baths is the boxing club in Burgess Park, NOT the leisure centre next to the Funky Munky.
Agreed?
Nice houses, for sure.
The lack of secondary schools is holding back property prices in a big way – there’s no incentive for the middle income guardian readers with kids to come here. The higher income segment that lives locally tend to use private schools.
Eusebio, your spelling is certainly execrable and your punctuation punktiddlious! However, you make up for it in enthusiasm, humour and invaluable, informed opinion through many years of experience in Camberwell and for this reason I give you 4 out of 10.
Another Baths meeting report here on SE5 Forum.
ENB is definitely the one to put Camberwell on the transport planners’ maps, the only obstacle (for those who see the loss of bathing facilities as unacceptable) being the Council funding the initial renovation/installation of the pool and changing facilities.
There will need to be more concentration on Camberwell’s fair share of the Southwark capital fund, based on SE5’s deprivation and residential density, if such obstacles are to be overcome. Southwark has a > £1 billion annual turnover, so why not examine that more closely, rather than accept it as all being “operational”?
Then there’s the Great Leader’s recent initiative to promote “free swimming for all”, surely of some application in this high-density Labour enclave, and with 80% of Council funding coming from general taxation?
Conscientious Camberwellians with leisure time are spoilt for choice tonight — SE5 Forum committee meeting or the seminar on the tram.
Dagmar @73
Many Thanks…
Not quite sure what happened there, my punctuation was all over the place this morning.
4 out of 10? You’re a hard woman to please…
Ah, but it’s worth the strenuous effort and they sleep like babies after! Actually, I am seasonally melancholy which makes me dreamy and silly — I pass the Michaelmas daisies in the suburban gardens between Camberwell and West Norwood every day — they have clocks like dandelion clocks. So not only are the Michaelmas daisies saying goodbye to the summer, but as the flowers die, they leave a clock behind which ticks loudly here in the waiting room… “Tick-tock, tick-tock, the last flowers are gone, leaving this clock.” Oh, the tears are flowing again.
Tram thing was this morning so no conflict with Camberwell Forum. Anyone go?
Love ENB but hate to lose the pool. Housing trade-off makes sense. We can’t demand more than we are willing to give. Camberwells contribution to the Council pot is low so we have to find ways to generate money. If they decided to give the lowest contributing wards a new school, tube and Leisure Centre it would be unfair. And if they did, we’d price out most locals and become Clapham.
Newroad, most Council expenditure is from central Government, and much of that not from income tax, but corporation tax, customs duties, chain smoking and alcohol duties (disproportionately the poor) and VAT. So this “low-contributing wards” theory is completely irrelevant to how the Borough invests its money, morally or whatever. As I’ve said before, if Camberwell’s local economy was freed up by fair planning reforms, it could give a lot more than certain Dulwich wards contribute to the 20% local government pot you are talking about, and even become a BID. Small businesses all over SE5 are crying out to expand whilst money-grubbing landlords keep empty commercial properties locked up, hoping to convert to the sh1t-boxes to which D-Man refers.
Also, SE5 housing is already completely unaffordable to most locals if they are not long on the ‘ladder or on a welfare promise. So stop being a London altruist and start talking up Camberwell, please.
I’m also keen to hear whether anyone made that — daytime as I should have known — tram meeting, and whether there was debate between the agencies or more of a presentation of their positions to each other.
Newroad: “If they decided to give the lowest contributing wards a new school, tube and Leisure Centre it would be unfair.”
You have a rather stark view of the role of government — in my book it is precisely these areas that need the government investment to promote regeneration, prosperity and employment.
I personally think that Camberwell’s problem is that it is squeezed in the middle between rich and poor. As a result it does not attract the regeneration investment that Elephant, Walworth, Peckham, Brixton etc get because it is not poor enough but does not have the wealth of Dulwich for example which attracts businesses.
The ENB proposals from what Ive read of them do seem to be attractive but it would be wrong to lose the community facility of the swimming pool without the promise of a new one.
My instinct says go for the ballet. My instinct is as strong as my thighs.
According to the BBC the tram link future is ‘pessimistic’ — http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7607408.stm
My instinct says ballet too. A ludicrous sport, but a classy one!
@62 Thanks for that genfink. I feel older yet younger all at the same time.
Baths. It is time that Camberwell faced up to some realities. We can have the lesisure facilities we deserve but only if we make them happen. This means some form of Community Trust and some hard nosed work shoving and pushing local authorities and pulling lots of people together behind a do-able vision. The process we’re involved with that was the meeting last night is a direct outcome of last year’s Camberwell Baths working group not getting their act together (I include myself in this criticism) and leaving Southwark with no option other than to throw it our for creative tender.
We could have done it all in house — i.e. in Camberwell — but NO. No that would be too straightforward and mean too many people thinking outside of their comfortable shabby run down Camberwell box.
Of the proposals presented it is a shame that Fusion’s assembled coalition was so apologetic and down key. I feel that Fusion could do a good job but somehow are damned with this site.
Ash Sakula were upbeat and interesting and enthusiastic with their Russian bath in the basement idea. There was a lot of resistance to their building so many new housing in such a tight site — I think we’re in a tight area of dense population anyway so SO WHAT if some better conceived, better designed and built extra new accommodation were tucked in to the centre? Would be a good thing and could offer the opportunity to open the back area towards the Courts up to more people and activity.
BUT I’m rooting for English National Ballet. They MEAN what they say about integration and engagement. Their roots are about community and dissemanation of dance to as broad an audience as possible — iN spite of the lecture Michelle gave me to the contrary at the end of the meeting because I showed support for ENB setting up shop here… I mean they’ve even got an Aussie as MD.
Camberwell needs a major shot in the arm to resucitate it. The other schemes will not do this. More people will be brought in to dance than will ever swim in those baths — just because the baths are horrid and making them unhorrid and up to contemporary standars is way out of budget for any scheme under 15 million. And we’re not getting 15 million schemes presented.
So I suggest we get used to the idea that there is no way the baths can live on where they stand, short of a financial miracle happening — like Camberwell winning the Euro Lottery this Friday or us all getting together and agreeing to set up a Development Trust to make it happen (not in a month of full blue moon Sundays could that happen here) — and embrace ENB’s arrival big time and work with ENB to rebuild Camberwell’s status from scratch pulling in all the other international important centres of excellence we have on our doorstep — Maudsley, Kings, IOP, Camberwell College, South London Gallery and the others I can’t recall just now, find some land, build a new leisure facility that meets the community’s needs and costs about half what the Leisure Centre needs spending on it and go for a new high school in the area at the same time.
Aplopogies for the ytops
And by the way this is doable, I’m not THAT kind of dreamer.
Well said Mark. Completely agree that the ENB proposal is the one that will really make a difference to Camberwell. I just hope there are enough people who realise this and support them. I know it probably won’t make a difference, but I’ve emailed the councillors who were at the meeting to pledge my support for the ENB and it would be great if others did the same.
If ENB was to work, one model might be what the Laban have done in Deptford. I think the community “offer” end of the ENB’s proposal would need to be examined very closely, ideally by people who have epxerience in this area. And extra money levered in where necessary (from the Lottery, Hamlyn, ACE etc). It wouldn’t be enough just for ENB to honour us with their pale well toned presence.
One downside of the ballet – how many Range Rovers can fit into Artichoke Place at the same time?
On the upside – ballet is a little like gymnastics and Camberwell has a very good and engaged community gymnastics club
Hear, hear Mark.
One of the bus garages should become a pool/leisure complex. I mentioned this in jest on th Forum site but have since convinced myself it would be bloody marvellous! A win, win, win, win, win! I say if TfL don’t provide us with some form of quick and reliable transport soon we storm and lay claim to the garage we like best.
Did you know that one of the biggest hurdles those behind the Globe Theatre had to overcome was that the council didn’t want to relocate a facility for storing bin men’s stuff?
I doubt very much whether having the ENB will bring any benefits to Camberwell. LAMDA — the world famous drama school — is in Baron’s Court. It has zero effect on Baron’s Court. No one says, “O Baron’s Court — home of LAMDA.” The London Symphony Orchestra is near Waterloo. Its presence has zero effect on the area. Camberwell already has three great institutions — King’s, the Institute of Psychiatry and the Art College. Yet its legion problems haven’t been cured. How is the ENB going to put Camberwell on the map if the Art College hasn’t? If Camberwell loses its leisure centre, it will never get another one. No bus garage will ever be converted; no empty space waiting for a leisure centre will be discovered. The Leisure Centre will simply be added to the list of things that Camberwell doesn’t have: no decent shops, no tube stop, no sports facilities. Camberwell will get ever closer being a cross-roads in the middle of nowhere — where North Dulwich meets West Peckham meets East Brixton and South Elephant.
And the idea of the people of Camberwell putting aside their swimmers and pulling on ballet pumps is just silly.
We’re all doomed!
Hey everybody it’s my birthday today, if you’re in Mayfair pop by for a piece of cake!
It’s clear to me that Southwark Council has absolutely no intention of keeping Camberwell Baths open considering their vast expendure on Peckham Pomp and East Dulwich pools recently.
Rather than let one of the finest Architectural Gems in Camberwell go to waste, thus giving the useless local authority carte blanche to demolish it — I would rather the English National Ballet took over the building and got a grant and donations to restore and refurbish it
I know some believe it might not have a huge effect on Camberwell but as far as I’m concerned the more artistic,cultural and educational bodies that locate in Camberwell the better — We can use all the support of these institutions to heavily lobby the Council in community meetings and forums.
The council will always ignore the concerns of us humble proles but if we had the weight of these organizations behind and working with us — eventually they would be forced to change their policy
And that can only be a good thing…
Camberwell College of Arts
English National Ballet (potentially)
Kings College Hospital
Salvation Army
That’s an enviable quartet of influence that just hasn’t been tapped up — most communities would love to call upon such riches…
Agree with a lot of what you say Julian, but not the comparison with LAMDA and the LSO, mainly because the ENB studios would be in the thick of it. Very much a feature of Camberwell’s epicentre.
I hope one day we have a gang called the Tutu Boyz. Rock hard.
So it is this Camberwell Baths
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnnystewart/14184676/
not this Camberwell Baths
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37541982@N00/1233480798/
I definitely vote for adding ballerinas to the local nightlife even though I think anyone claiming that a load of half starved posh girls will help the local working classes is mental..
Thanks for Clarifying. D-MAN.
Is the Burgess Park baths at risk at all?!
Is that one called something else then?
Both buildings are architectural gems from the period of socialist empowerment — after all the needless destruction perpetuated by the crass dullards of the local authority — places such as these should be automatically Grade 1 listed
No arguments…
From a period of stinking BO and weekly communal bathing.
If the Burgees Park one was Grade 1 they wouldn’t have been allowed to land the butterfly on the side..
Socialists empowerment?! I think you are confusing them with the Aylesbury Estate.
Florian’s right, Julian, about Laban and Alan about ballerinas in Camberwell, Baron’s Court being barren.
Maybe it would just be easier for us all to accept that a turd can’t be polished…
Nice one euse, I’d forgotten that one. I’ve been buffing like hell around here for over ten years and it’s still a…
The thing, Julian, about the other institutions in the area is that they have been here all through Camberwell’s rise and fall and inevitably are part of the problem in that they have all suffered long — just as residents and businesses have done — over years of local authority neglect toward Camberwell. They have all had to look inward to keep stable and have not been significantly impacting on the community. They have all known this now for some time and have the will to work together to try to end the blight. A new big cultural player on the scene in Camberwell will be a shot of adrenaline in the mix and could be pivotal to the town’s renaissance if used well by Camberwell to promote Camberwell.
The Leisure Centre is a dead cause as a swimming baths. In spite of what everyone says about its elegance, beauty, pleasure of experience can you imagine anyone growing up having swum there regularly seriously wanting to take up swimming long term or ever looking back with rose tinted glasses on and saying ‘what a joy it was going to Camberwell baths’. No.
To make Camberwell baths properly fit for 21 Century purpose it needs to be completely gutted and rebuilt internally from the basement up and beyond. Few people are prepared to admit this but it is a fact. This is a vastly more expensive exercise than ANY formal proposal that has been put forward so far and there is no economic evidence to suggest it would be financially viable in the long, or even short, term. There are only so many ways to cut a cake and, although in our dreams there are ways of making the site work, reality dictates it will never get the investment it needs to make a swimming pool work in that space.
Therefore a process of deduction suggests that ENB’s proposal is more sustainable long term than the others — it is less of a financial burden than the other schemes and from the outset has a copper bottomed income stream to keep it thriving, growing and investing in the area long term. I accept entirely the point that ENB’s commitment to community engagement and outreach be closely looked at as well as their stated desire to work with Brunswick Gym club and other local groups desperately needing space whose activities could be a good fit with ENB’s. Encouraging ENB to take a role in Camberwell Arts Festival and add a whole raft of activities that have been under resourced locally and having the site as an active public venue would have an amazing impact on the area.
AT the same time as supporting ENB I personally will be banging on about there being an absolute need for high quality local swimming provision i.e. NOT Peckham but Camberwell and encouraging people to come together to make a new build happen in Camberwell. It will be much cheaper than saving or preserving the existing baths in the half cocked under capitalised way the site can afford.
‘You can put lipstick on a pig, it’s still a pig.’
Those of us with luscious, pink haunches have nothing to fear, except the approaches from the rear of hairy old corkscrew-wielding boars.
Whoever did the guerilla gardening on the traffic island opposite the Fox on the Hill has raised some robust, tall, bright sunflowers which are exceptionally welcome in the current grey, wet climate.
Further on up Herne Hill there is a Mercedes M-Class 4x4 parked, the kind of vehicle designed to jam the M4 in the event of an attack on London. The personalised numberplate has a squiggly typeface that is illegally hard to read, but it seems to say SIR PEE.
There is an obituary in the Guardian today for Denis Groutage, who was born in Camberwell. He is probably the only theatre technician ever to work on every single one of Shakespeare’s plays.
Ergo.
Bring on the English National Ballet.
2-seater Mazda sports car for sale on Talfourd Road for £795. Can’t think what I need one for, but tempting at that price, no?
Seller is open to offers, i’d guess.
Also I spotted that sported-up Orange Lada you mentioned Dagmar
does anyone know if the plans are on display/online anywhere? I couldn’t make it to the presentation unfortunately. Who makes the decision and when?
I do have some views, but I’d like to know more before I comment!
Mark Dodds @100
And I’ve got another comfortable 10 years + on top of the ones that you have completed…and I still can’t see a reflection!
I try to be positive but throughout my time living in this infuriatingly frustrating but also likeable part of London there has been a constant thread that has never faultered or waivered and that is…
Southwark Council were,are and always will be a shower of shiesters.
…and no mistake
Lambeth for all their faults have always been marginally better than Southwark in every aspect — all the historical data and fact points to this
I don’t know about LAMDA and LSO but ENB does pay its dues to the community. Their outreach work is excellent — I know of several local kids, boys and girls, who are being taught by ENB after being spotted through the Chance to Dance programme, which runs through primary schools in deprived areas, such as Southwark. These are kids who would not otherwise have done ballet, and the fact that they benefit from tuition (currently taking place at Peckham Academy) from one of the world’s foremost artistic companies is fantastic — plus they get to perform at the Royal opera house. How many kids in the country have that opportunity?
Plus, if they’re offering classes and performances, it will bring a lot of people into the area (as the Laban in Deptford does) which could have a positive knock-on for local businesses.
tanera@104:
I haven’t been able to find any detailed plans online, but there is this report which they handed out at the meeting. It covers the design briefs and lists some basic information about each of the proposals:
http://www.southwark.gov.uk/Uploads/FILE_36464.pdf
As far as next steps go the Southwark Council Executive are due to make an ‘in principle’ decision sometime in October.
Bring the ballet to Camberwell! As chrism says, it’s not exactly elitist for Britain’s biggest ballet company to teach locals. Workerists may want an ordinary pool, Islingtonists may want Turkish baths, but Camberwellists welcome the ballet.
Hi all
Any picks for the best Sunday lunch in Camberwell / Brixton / Herne Hill area?
Cheers!
Your good mate Phil G
You’ll need aerobics after all that grub.
Phil G
My recommendation would have to be The Bear on corner of Camberwell New Road/Camberwell Station Road. Had my birthday lunch in there on Sunday and it was marvellous
You said you was in Mayfair with all the boutique hedge funds and that!
Ive always thought the Bear was a bit expensive — Sunday lunch is in the region of £11–12 compared to £8–10 in other pubs for what essentially is the same thing. Plus at the Bear I think there is an ‘optional’ 10% service charge (grr — its a pub, not a restaurant).
I would recommend the George Canning, Sun and Dove or The Castle for a standard Sunday lunch. I dont think the Grove is worth the hassle and its always empty and the Fox onthe Hill is not very pleasant food or other clientele wise. Havent tried the roast at the Cambria but was impressed at the way its been done up when I went in the other day.
@112 Dagmar
That’s where I work, innit.
Ok I would probably agree with you Mumu, The Bear is expensive and the service charge is a bit galling, I was just giving my opinion because that’s what Phil G asked for. I will definitely give the George Canning a try for Sunday lunch next time and from then on be able to speak with a wider sphere of influence.
The florence in herne hill/brixton is v. good. Opposite brockwell lido. Or the Spar on vestry if you’re skint.
108
the only problem with ENB and their community programme is a question of the numbers of people who will be able to get on the courses. I have been to Laban every week for 11 years, and they have a fantastic Saturday morning kids programme, but it has a 2 year waiting list, and there are 5 classes, each with 20 kids. They do have after school programmes, but again it’s 10–15 kids a session. So compared with the swimming pool which currently has 1,000 school kids a week using it, plus the gym, gymnastics club, yoga etc, the numbers of people, across all age groups and social backgrounds, able to access health and sport facilities is WAY more than the ENB could ever hope to do.
@ Phil G
Depends if you have kids or not.
If not, then I had lunch last Sunday in the George Canning and it was very, very good indeed. Not yer usual pre-sliced catering pack joints. (All meat from that swanky butcher in East Dulwich, I believe). Nice atmosphere, not too busy. Sky on large plasmas but not at an intrusive volume.
If you have kids in tow, then it has to be the good old S&D. They do kid-sized drinks in plastic cups and will split adult portions. Staff tolerant. Books, crayons and paper lurking in a cupboard. Enjoy!
For £15 at Netto, Rye Lane, two of you can be stuffed, pissed and in King’s A&E on a drip.
Needed lunch today on the spur of the moment on the way to ‘cash and carry’ stopped off at JJ catering on Southampton Way — solely because I’d read about it here. It is a MUST. GO THERE! And be delighted. The food is wonderful, Indian, perfectly judged and produced. And unbelievably good value.
A GEM of rare proportions and a great asset to Camberwell.