Burgess Park design proposals
Published by Peter | Filed under Development
In the traditional ‘burying bad news’ time slot (I hope that’s not ominous), Southwark Council have released the two shortlisted proposals for Burgess Park.
I’ve hardly had time to look at these myself, yet, so reaction will follow.
Update: So here’s my considered opinion. Obviously with a constrained budget (£6m may sound a lot, but Burgess Park is one of the largest in London and is receiving a fraction of the money given to comparable projects) both have had to be somewhat cautious in their plans; it’s quite funny to see existing features marketed as new ones (“a wide tree-lined avenue along the historical canal path, with space for walkers, runners and cyclists” — that’s what we have now, only with not so many trees).
As well as improved entrances and lighting, which were requirements, both have focussed on the lake area and a new public square where the underpass currently sits; as both have proposed sealing the underpass, this does present the problem of having a very busy road run through the middle of it and no easy way to cross; a minus point, in my book.
Gillespies bid is the more cautious (sensible?) of the two; I liked their dog-only areas, cycling/walking routes, and meadow area.
LDA Designs were more ambitious; informative art pieces are respectful of the park’s history, and with more biodiversity — including a wetlands area and an orchard.
Of the two, I think I lean towards the latter (I will have to assume that everything they’ve planned can be achieved within the budget), but it’s very close.
After viewing both briefly…
I prefer the Gillespies plan but they should keep and restore the old canal bridge…It would be stupid not too…
Hard to tell which is best. Gillespies looks flasher. But I don’t like the proposal to have designated areas for dogs. Dog walkers — dog egg issues aside — are important to the safety and life of a park. I couldn’t see whether the intention is to keep it open 24 hours, but that should be a pre-requisite. I’m in there very early some days and it’s well used even then.
I like the idea of a dog free park. Dogs are dangerous and they crap everywhere. I also hate watching ‘responsible owners’ running round with plastic bags on their hands scraping up turd. Why would you do that? Unless you’re a shepherd, a huntsman, blind or working in mountain rescue then dog ownership is optional. At a push I’d forgive a lighthouse keeper or a tramp.. but we all know what they get up to with their dogs..
You big blouse. Dogs are nice, have soft ears and do funny tricks.
Well said, Alan. Britain is top of the world league of Dog Lovers. It is our national shame. They woof, bark, whine, poop, stink, blow off in your face, flop around and yes you guessed it that’s just the owners. Sheepdogs are great working in the hills. The idea of keeping dogs as pets is totally anti-dog.
Dogs and cities don’t go together… it inevitably becomes a case of the tail wagging the dog, spendging vast amounts cleaning up after them and, in the case of irresponsible owners, their keepers too.
Speaking of dogs… went to see ‘UP’ today. Lots of dogs in that film. Very nicely made pic.
Nothing worse than ruining a favorite pair of shoes by stepping in dog doo…
They are never quite the same again afterwards…
I think the council will take the ideas folk like the best from both masterplans and then create a fusion — they should take a few ideas from Mile End Park
Was at Peckham Rye park the other day. Loved the outdoor gym — a playpark for adults, and being very well used (not by me, but I appreciated the idea!). Also loved the unpretentious but well kept bowling green where anyone could wander in, pay their £3, and have a go (or sit on the side eating scones and ice cream). Both that cafe, and the new cafe at the entrance are great additions. And all the lovely flower gardens, including the Japanese Garden and the English garden (Sexby Garden?) are really great places to be. Quite a different vibe to that of Burgess Park, of course, but it seems to work for Peckham — a combination of wide open spaces, architectural flower gardens, and interactive activities. Wasn’t particularly inspired by either Burgess Park proposal…
Dogs. Seems to me when I’m in Ruskin or on the Rye that there’s only one breed of dog these days. Everyone has the same staffie fighting dog thingy. It’s depressing. Bring back all the other dogs.
Gillespies — the pond boardwalk will mean the loss of a bank to the anglers, though that’s not a biggie. However it’s one of v few places for fishermen in London. As anyone who uses Warwick Gdns will know, people shortcut across the grass when faced with ‘meandering paths’.
LDA — The Great Lawn is, er, a field.
Gillespies looks the better of the two but perhaps only because it’s a better leaflet. There’s not much in it.
Anyway, both these designs need to better reflect modern urban needs. For instance, where is the Dogging Zone? I want to see a secluded area with tables shaped like Ford Escort bonnets, lots of shrubbery for folk to hang about in, spotlights, special wet wipe dispensers, etc…
Was always curious about this place. One of two quite unique looking and slightly isolated semis near Lettsom estate. Now we know. Can’t afford it though.
http://www.acorn.ltd.uk/property_for_sale.asp?location=McNeil%20Road,%20SE5&strFileRef=120325
Mmm, maybe the Southwark Council building sell-off will be part of this.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4481495e-b714-11de-96f2-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1
Gordon goes to Cash Converters.
@ Phil G: Same Breed of Dogs — In this year of Darwin what better proof of what happens when environmental evolutionary pressures apply to animals ? Staffs pit bulls are simply the outcome of intense processes of natural selection south east London.
Interesting point Mark, and I’m sure Darwin would be duly horrified by the standard of human genetic stock that, in many cases, is rearing these dogs.
Both proposals are very dull considering there is six million to spend they are both very mundane. I was very under-whelmed. Also separating park users into different areas is very 1980’s. Seems we are heading that way politically so I suppose the park will as well.
It is a real shame as this could have been a great opportunity to do something radical. I would have preferred to see Peter’s zoo than these proposals.
LDA are doing the Olympic site and Gillespies are a huge practice there are better ones out there.
Even shoulder pads are back a definite sign of the 80“s
As I mentioned before, Gnomee, in fact £6m is not a great investment for a park of this size; to put it in perspective, the recent development of Mile-End Park, which is 36 hectares, cost £40m; Burgess Park is 50 hectares. Potter’s Field Park, at only 1.5 hectares, cost £3m to develop.
Peter you are absolutely right on the mark but I have to say £6 million is a TON of money although not enough. It would go further IF it were not in local authority or pfi clutches where most of it will be spent in consultancy and feasibility studies and the remainder will be eroded by demands of time (like it will take three years to make a decision about anything) and health and safety issues.
Mile End Park had a lot of structural work linking the various green swards across roads which made it very cash intensive.
With Burgess a lot of money’s going to be spent making it benign before work starts been done on remaking it.
A Development Trust was the best way forward for Burgess but that got binned somehow — that debacle passed me by entirely — and no doubt a cloud of cash evaporated along the way knocking that one for six.
And there are ways of making £6 million go a long long way if it’s done creatively with imagination and a tight arsed attitude.
By the way there was tonight (Monday 12 October) a HUGE noisy bash in Warner Road which looked horribly like a trendy big Art Happening in a building reputed to be owned by Damien Hirst. Anyone know anything about that? I was too shy to venture in and ask. I’ve thought for years that a good big industrial venue in one of those buildings on Warner — like Saatchi’s on Boundary Road — would transform Camberwell.
I saw it too wandering home at about 11.30pm from a Mark Thomas gig — there was art in the building and a large amount of art student-y looking people — they left a right mess this morning!
A good way to spend £6 million and end up with a great Park would be to employ local people to do it, with hired technical expertise to help it along.
You’d end up with:
* a better park w/ more creative design
* money kept in the area
* lot of people given the opportunity to learn skills and earn money
* greater chance of community affiliation with the project
Designing a park really can’t be that hard.
GRISTWOOD & TOMS have been giving the trees an end-of-summer service. Their work is expert and precise. The svelte mummies in Warwick Gardens gaze wistfully at the Toms’ lithe & wiry limbs as these fine feline fellows pass through the park in their flatbed truck. A silver birch has broken in half in the churchyard. The leaves are falling like money — gold, silver, bronze, then all gone.
On a slightly unrelated topic, was wondering around Camberwell Old Cemetery in Forest Hill. If you haven’t been there, I can recommend it. Fascinating place. Completely overgrown and better for it. Discovered that one of the first recipients of the Victoria Cross was a Camberwell man. http://www.shinycapstar.com/stanlake.htm
Someone has cut through the undergrowth to provide a path to the grave. Will try and get a picture up.
@Gabe — using local people to build the park totally on the ball great idea far too bloody basic and sensible EVER to be taken up for Burgess Park.
@Hannah — I spoke to an electrician at the premises today and he confirmed:
1) art thingy but knew very little about it said there was some performance thing breaking up cars and a woman upstairs with lots of pigeons in the room
2) Damien Hirst had something to do with it
Mark — good news soem arty people have moved to the area and are doing interesting things — however at the risk of sounding old they need to understadn that if they want to hold huge noisy partiew on weekdays with very loud music into the small hours some of us have boring jobs that require us to be up early in the morning!
Mmm where’s this art thing at? I gotta meet some of these arty chicks. But first I need to get the parting cut out of my hair, and also lose this tie.
Hannah I suggest you do the same. Perhaps we could gatecrash the next happening and pretend we’re postgrads, or theatre set designers.
I am relieved that neither proposal is too radical and that they’re not planning to totally overhaul the park — I actually quite like it as it is, and I was a bit worried they would transform it into a sterile, ‘over managed’ nightmare. I think there’s a lot to be said for leaving things a bit wild and overgrown.
I quite like both proposals, there’s not really much between them.
Off topic — I took little ‘un and hubby down to Johaanson’s for brunch on Saturday and was bowled over — can’t believe I haven’t been there before, it’s just what Camberwell needs! A lovely brunch, smiling chatty staff and a family friendly atmosphere. I think they need to market themselves better though, there must be loads of people like me who have walked on by for months thinking we’ll never get a seat because it looks so small! It’s actually quite big inside. I think I’m going to become a regular! Shame they don’t open in the evening yet — the waiter said they’re hoping to by the end of the year.
‘OVER MANAGED’, exactly Amanda. The nicest, small natural open spaces in Camberwell are the churchyard and Lucas Gardens. One thinks of Audrey in ‘The Archers’, speaking up in the parish council meeting about footpaths. ‘They are a precious tracery of ancient byways that link us to our primaeval past,’ or some such, she said. Scadbury Park is great near Sidcup, original woodland. ‘Most of Britain was once like this, well trodden paths amongst forests, with occasional clearings where there were people who kept pigs,’ our 6-year-old girl was recently advised. ‘For real?’ she said. So, indeed. In those days, should one have come across a MacDonalds in the forest, one would have thought that God had landed along with his celestial palace.
@Dagmar your six year old is clearly a budding genius with provenance. Does she pine for McDonalds in woodland clearings? Where are the Deesses by the way?
This comment from the boss of Asda today made me larf.
“No-one can deny that Britain has spawned a generation of young people who struggle to read, write or do simple maths.
“That’s why we’re finding packs of nappies discarded in the booze aisle as the last few pounds are spent on alcohol rather than childcare.”
So true, so true. What a hopeless nation we are. Still, I’d rather have a can of Tatra than some rusks anyday.
Booze or Nappies? Ed Byrne has something to say about that…maybe everyone has been listening to him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL51QamqY1Q
From about 1 minute 45 secs.
Silk Road! Baffling menu but we recklessly overordered and had a very enjoyable meal.
Any tips for ordering there?
Silk Rd. Your choices fall neatly into two categories.
The main specialities are the Muslim style food from Xinjiang (though the staff are not ethnic muslim Xinjiangers). This means the cumin loaded kebabs, the big chicken, the boiled lamb and one or two noodle dishes. Note that some of these need two or more diners to make the most of them.
2nd category is the Chinese stuff, some of which you could get in regular Chinese restaurants, some you couldn’t. The ones I have had — green veg, aubergines etc — have by and large been very tasty.
If I’m with another person I usually go: lamb kebabs, a big belt noodle chicken or whatever it’s called, a bowl of rice or a plate of Xinjiang noodles, and a Chinese style veg dish.
The other thing that is quite popular is the dumplings, which are a Chinese dish. These come with a soy and/or vinegar dip. I find the dough too stodgy and in some ways the filling is too meaty, but I can vouch that that is how they are in parts of China.
So I’m in for another free color TV on the East Dulwich Forum.
I scored a small portable a couple of months ago from a nice guy named Steve. This “new” one has two scart sockets and is 28″.
EDF is good for that kind of thing. Conversation, not so much.
Sort of a reverse of Camberwell Online.
Keep up the looting.
If we ever get a new telly I’ll bear you in mind. New tellies are for wimps though.
Thanks Phil. Had the kebabs this time but I fancy the big belters next.. I’ll print off your instructions..
Sorry guys to be the nay sayer about Burgess Park but the £6mill is a sandwich short of a picnic and what we’re looking at here are two schemes that aren’t going to do what’s needed.
Personally, I KNOW it’s possible to squeeze a lot more out of 6 big ones than these schemes outline but I live in the real world of hand to mouth economics where a tenner has to reap thirty quid’s worth of return.
The ambitions for the park fall short of where they ought to be and we’re all going to get another thirty years of poor planning on top of thirty (a lot more I think actually) years of poor planning for Burgess Park.
This has become a self fulfilling prophecy — THE park with the most spent on it and the least achieved.
Aspirations for Burgess Park ought to be of the highest order. THE park for London’s 21st century, drawing in people form across the capital, causing a stir internationally and across the UK. Instead it will be a pedestrian boring non entity that was sanctioned by everyone involved along the way because they all know life’s not perfic and they’ll get a job out of it for a while. Damn their consciences.
As Peter’s already pointed out in his update, what we mostly have here is Burgess Park rebranded rather than redeveloped. Fair enough perhaps — you don’t get a lot of consultancy for the odd six million nowadays — but the proposal to remove the underpass at Wells Way and replace it with a ‘shared surface/traffic calmed area’ or similar is, frankly, bizarre.
Have either of these outfits actually been there? It’s a busy road and has been for a very long time — that’s why there’s an underpass. And it’s getting busier. Pedestrian priority here — runners, cyclists, toddlers and tricycles, even without the staffie walkers — would create a tailback the like of which has never been seen in these parts.
Let’s say there wasn’t already an underpass. What might be the likely first thing to occur to someone presented with the challenge of uniting two halves of a park separated by a busy road? Might it be something like: “Hey guys! How about an underpass? Or a flyover? No, maybe a flyover’s a bit pricey and we’ve got a lot of photoshop to do for the tree-lined avenue and stuff but how about an underpass?” Sorted.
And another thing — or two:
A ‘Destination Park’? A destination for whom, apart from those who can run, cycle or toddle there. Or there’s always the bus — but you’ll not be welcome on the 343 with a tricycle. Or a picnic hamper. So why no car-park? The existing one will be a bit muddy what with the frogs. But you’d get a lot of cars parked end-on to the kerb with an extra few feet on some of those redundant roads.
And speaking of roads, there’s an opportunity here for some joined-up thinking about joined-up roads. One of the original aims of the CRT was that the Gloucester Grove/North Peckham estates area, as was, should be served by public transport. In fact, the idea is way older than that — with a major junction built long ago on the Peckham Road for a dedicated bus-route through, via Chandler Way, to St George’s Way. Not sure quite where it was meant to go from there but the logical route would be to curve through the cutting between the Astroturf pitch and the… er …Great Lawn to connect with the existing, blocked, Calmington Road out to Albany Road for a left and right into Thurlow Street for the Elephant.
With a stop and maybe a toilet or two and a pan-roasted pheasant burger/icecream stall by the lake it wouldn’t be a bad place to alight for an enjoyable Burgess Park Experience. And, with only the odd bus to contend with, you’d probably lose a lot fewer people with pedestrian priority crossing points.
Wait…I’ve just had another look at LDA’s impression of the new Wells Way Square and there’s just the one car there. So no problem. I take it all back.
@Robert Soles: Neat, well done.
And it’s in SE5. And it has the possibility of being a transformational development affecting a huge swathe of se Lodon… and what we’re going to get is a lot of money misspent on one of the most significant inner city open spaces in Europe and we’ll be sad.
Take out Wells Way altogether! There was talk of this when the tram was going to pass through here. At the end of the day it’s a rat run through our park. The current pedestrian underpass is narrow, oppressive and smells of piss. @Robert Soles Queues of traffic? – let it queue — we live in a city which should be for people not cars especially in the middle of one of the few parks we have and I definitely don’t agree with your new division of the park for a bus lane!. I like the ironwork and history elements of LDAs design and community aspect of Gillespie’s
if twitter is to be believed Lord Neil Kinnock is going to be in Caravaggios in Camberwell this evening at some fundraising thing http://twitter.com/JohnFriary
Oyster card pay-as-you-go bus journeys are to rise from £1 to £1.20.
Is anyone else here absolutely sick of buses shortening their routes after you’ve got on and paid? I’m thinking of the 12 and the 171 in particular.
Ever since they got these auto announcement systems in they seem to think it’s fine to change the destination as they like. For God’s sake it’s not that hard to regulate a service. I’m so tired of being chucked off early, and this after having waited 10 minutes for it in the first place.
I also notice that the tannoy doesn’t tell passengers that they’re entitled to a special ticket off the driver to use to complete their journey. Strange that.
Fight the power, people.
Really? That makes me so angry. Public transport costs rise at an astronomical rate! On the other hand, bus fares in London are probably cheaper than anywhere else in the country… In any case, I’m even more glad that I’ve started cycling. Free, plus healthy, plus faster than the bus. As long as I avoid those lorries in the cycle lanes…
I had no idea I was entitled to a special ticket to complete the journey til the 68 decided to stop at Holborn last week (my bike had a flat tire, I am incompetent at repairs, and Edwardes wasn’t open yet). Amidst my wrath, I noticed a woman asking the driver for a transit ticket. I followed suit. What I actually got was a printout of all the passengers and how they had paid since the start of the 68’s journey. At 8am 70% were Freedom Pass or children. The proportion of Freedom Pass holders presumably increases later in the day. If so many people are travelling free, it’s hardly surprising that we need a fare rise to pay for them all (though we’re also paying through the Council), but personally I think it’s too easy to get a Freedom Pass. Though not easy enough, as I don’t have one… (the new bus did let me on for free with this bizarre “transit ticket”).
Glad to see the congestion charge go up even though global warming is no longer an issue:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8299079.stm
Pollution and finite fossil fuels are still a concern.
I am very disappointed that the bus fare rises are the biggest. This punishes the poorest the most. So much for caring conservatism. I am definitely going to vote Labour.
It’s a harsh rise, but there is a massive funding gap which Boz inherited. Ken would’ve had to do something as well. This is partly in thanks to the many many people travelling free, as GayC’s printout shows.
Still, a London journey is relatively cheap when you think you can cross the whole city for £1.20.
Ken would have gone after the middle class commuters. Annual travel cards have been frozen to protect Boris’s supporters.
The people who travel for free are largely very poor.
Singling out fare evaders is like turning on the long term sick. Easy populist targets missing the real point of huge embedded inequality in Britain.
The ‘poor’ will still travel free. Boris has stuffed your average London commuter with this, including ‘middle class’ office idiots like me. And he’s even hiked the congestion charge too for the Range Rover types.
Yet still he’s accused of pandering to his supporters. Even if he was, since he was democratically chosen by a strong majority then wouldn’t that be OK? Does everything have to be about the ‘poor’?
For me one of the most deplorable things about TfL is the way that if you’re not in its spyware Oyster system then you get really fleeced. It’s a terrible way to treat visitors and tourists.
What Alan said.
Course, I don’t blame Ken or Boris. The dogs dinner of Metronet created a big part of the funding problem. Cheers Gordon!
As for London transport, well where to begin. Dreadful. And when you go to another world city and see how it can be then you just feel ashamed.
Check Peter’s tweet of the New York Times on Peckham’s art scene:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/15/arts/15iht-rcartsouth.html?_r=1
Infested with cliche.
Interesting link Gabe, thanks. Surprised it’s in the NYT.
A floor covered with honey is art? I need to see some of these exhibitions…
ON the ART scene that shindig on Warner Road was an exhibition that’s staying up till December. The building is owned by Damien Hirst and, apparently he has plans to move his work there for a permanent show. This bit is hearsay but in the meantime it will be used for exhibition of other artists’ work.
So that’s possibly quite exciting for the area. I’ve some pics of the space but not had time to upload as they say.
On the DEVELOPMENT scene there’s a significant building development being proposed by Frasers Property http://www.fraserspropertydev.com/default.aspfor the site straddles the land alongside Camberwell Passage, where the Job Centre is now, between Camberwell Green right back to Camberwell New Road. It is for 150 one, two and three bed homes with retail and amenity provision. A planning application has not been put in yet and Frasers say they want to hear locals’ aspirations for the area.
Frasers are doing two public exhibition and consultation days at ST Mary’s Greek Church (on Camberwell New Road next door to the closed City Office Audio nearly opposite The Bear.
Thursday 22 Oct 4pm — 7.30pm and Saturday 24 October 2.30 — 5.30pm
If this goes ahead it’s the most significant development to SE5 for decades and it must be got right. Definitely worth a look and giving your views.
Cann’t find anything about it specifically on their webnite, I have a pamphlet Brights’ News gave me yesterday, I’ll see if I can post it here later.
Yep, Mark. This is a really big deal.
Got the pamphlet you mentioned through the door and appreciate the efforts being made to consult with regular Camberdwellers.
The visual impression on it showing the bit facing the Green looks weird, but hey, it’s early days.
The following contact details were given for those who are interested but won’t be able to make it to the exhibition:
hsilver@bell-pottinger.co.uk
020 7861 2412
Like the sound of the radical art thing too. More good news. Found out a bit more here:
http://dossierjournal.com/art/crash/
http://thepop.com/2009/10/14/pop127/
Anyone who hasn’t seen the pamphlet yet can take a look at it here:
Frasers’ Camberwell Green proposal
There will be a public exhibition on Thurs 22nd & Sat 24th October.
Hopefully Frasers will be coughing up lots of Section 106 money for the Green making up for the funding it missed out on in the ‘Help a London Park’ vote.
James; Not a chance unless WE make that happen. We’re on our own. No one with authority over SE5 is looking after Camberwell the way it should be looked after.
@ NickW Let the cars queue affects all of us! The pollution affects those who live locally, hardly a recommendation for a park of the 21st century.
@PhilG Since Boris did away with the lower carbon emissions exemption it doesn’t matter what your car pumps out you pay the same congestion charge. Unless you have a hybrid or electric car of course,. He could have kept Ken’s plan to charge £25 for those Range Rovers maybe then we wouldn’t be paying 20% more to travel.
Putting the bus and tube fares up affects the majority of inner city Londoners who didn’t vote for Boris.
Those with a freedom pass do not get one easily and children going to school should travel free on buses otherwise they would be in the 4x4’s being driven there.
Phil G is well within his rights. Does everything have to be about the ‘poor’?
Not to you Phil, not to Boris and not to Davey C.
You lot are just below the surface. There is no caring Conservatism.
It was just a ploy to get elected. Now election seems inevitable so they can relax and start battering the poor with reduced benefit, no access to further education and increased bus fares. If they will admit to this now then imagine what awaits..
Well said Alan.
Here’s that 110 Warner Road http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdodds/sets/72157622609401806/show/ happening art space
off topic but just wanted to mention that based on the recommendations of this forum, we tried Sunday lunch at the Bear today.
Sadly, it was awful. We wanted it to be good, but the food was undercooked (very hard veg), cold and took over 40 minutes to arrive.
A shame really — we are easily pleased (hey, we like Hoa Veit !) — but it was barely edible. Maybe we just caught it on a bad day.
Mark — does the Sun and Doves do Sunday roasts? Might give it a go next.
Hi sg. Must say I think you were unlucky at The Bear, when I’ve been it’s been pretty good and heard lots of good reports although one friend, a chef, as it happens, said he had a terrible wait for his meal.
And yes we do do roasts at S&D. All day Sunday. Very good value, I think.
Problem with the Bear recently is that they have been getting very very busy on a Sunday.
Victim of its own success…most food on the menu was finished when we went a few weeks ago, choice was roast chicken or chicken.
Staff were still lovely, if a little frazzled by the numbers of punters. They just weren’t expecting so many people.
Well Alan I think both parties are far too centrist to really do anything radical. Your view of the Tories seems pretty black and white, and draws from fairly fixed assumptions. Vote Tory and it’ll be the miners’ strike all over again, there’ll be workhouses and shattered communities.
I doubt things will be that exciting. After 12 years of the admittedly quite half-hearted socialist approach of New Labour, which hasn’t really worked for the poor has it, I must conclude that I’m almost looking forward to a change.
Anyway
- further education. Blunkett introduced tuition fees as soon as Labour got in, didn’t he? And they’ve gone up and up under the party that cares for the poor. Now Gordon has commissioned a review of them and — surprise surprise — it won’t report til after the election. Guess which way fees are likely to head. Now, I think students should pay something, but it’s a terrible shame that students leave with the amount of debt they do. It’s despicable. But create a load of sh-te universities and drive numbers up with watered-down A-levels and something has to give.
- reducing benefit? I think both parties are going to protect benefit for those who need it, while trying to force those who don’t strictly need it off it. Anyone that can’t accept there’s a serious problem with disability benefit fraud in this country, well, good luck to you. Even I know a few on the make, by their own admission.
- bus fares. Sorry, wasn’t it me who raised this as a point of anger in the 1st place and pointed out how harsh it was? But my point is that when half of all bus journeys are given away free then it is largely working, average commuters, maybe even some on low incomes yes, who are going to feel the pain of this, and that’s not quite the same as hammering the poor is it.
Anyway, this would be the same mayor who backed a London living wage that is substantially higher than the minimum wage, and was also on board with the rather fruity idea to give illegal immigrants UK passports. Crazy Tory toff looking after his own, eh.
Gnomee, yes I’m sure a £2bn+ TfL funding gap could be solved by charging a few thousand Range Rover drivers £25 instead of £8. That’s not absurd tokenism, it sounds like a solution! Did you study maths under Labour by any chance?
Whoever gets in will make cuts and continue on the privatised, globalised, capitalised continuum we have all been on for many decades. With so much policy overlap between the parties I’m not sure it will make a huge difference, maybe a slight veer to the left or the right… Is that going to be real change?
sg — sorry to learn of your Bear experience, especially as I named it as one of only two really good places in our area. Sounds like you were unlucky on a Sunday. Try it on a Fri / Sat night. My last few meals were great.
Visited the Burgess Park design expo on Saturday. Neither of the proposals whips the other in my view, which is good.
As mentioned previously £6m is a lot of dosh, but not enough to fund a complete transformation, and both proposals blow the lot on Phase 1s. My main concern is the impact (or lack of it) each Phase 1 will have. Given the current climate, it could be argued that each of the ultimate visions might as well include a zoo for Peter’s own personal use (for delivery around the same time as the Bakerloo Line), such is the level of uncertainty.
So it could be said that LDA Design’s is the braver proposal in that the vast majority of the £6m seems like it would be spent on the fundamental groundwork/landscaping that should have been done when the park was first planned. In my humble opinion this would result in the park looking and feeling more like the wonderful, big open space it is.
Good that you went Copeywolf. I meant to but the demands of the weekend prevented it.
Some S&D Sunday Roast feedback here:
http://search.twitter.com/search?to=sunanddoves
[Edited: changed link]
On a different note, we are branching out into not gay-specific events and are thinking of some general fun things to get started in Camberwell. This Saturday 24th come down to the Sun and Doves at 7:30 for a free swing dance class. If it goes well, maybe we’ll be able to get swing dance to SE5 on a regular basis…
You are right Phil. The two main parties are frighteningly similar.
Their supporters are less so but the question is how well they can be managed. Labour have done a great job of crushing the will of their supporters to point that all that unites them is fear of the Tories and ‘Does everything have to be about the ‘poor’?’ type attitudes.
The fact that you reverted to this so quickly alarmed me, but your post is quite sobering in that it underlines the lack of a real choice.
Nuff said Alan. If I can be honest: not having kids and working fairly hard and then getting home to a cheap flat yet near £1K a year council tax bills and living in this area and some of the people you meet in it who, let’s face it, couldn’t give a sh-t, and the end of my youth are finally all starting to erode whatever socially inclusive ideals I once had. I must try to fight that.
As such, a swing night does sound fun and I’ll try to make it. Great idea.
Anyway, back to the buses. UN-REAL. Left the motorbike at home today and wow did I know it. Took me 1hr30 to get to Holborn. OK so the traffic at Waterloo is bad again. But before that it was Walworth Rd. There’s always something.
My point is this. When I first moved to SE5 I thought: great look at all these buses and I’m so near to central London, how amazing and convenient. But the reality is that they’re slow as all hell. That journey to work takes 45, 50 minutes even on a good day. And on Sunday it took me 30 minutes to get to Oval tube. I could’ve walked it.
So I’ve been to slow to realise that I could live on a trainline way out at Sevenoaks or Croydon or St Albans or somewhere and my commute, though more expensive, would be just as quick/slow. And I’d get so much more cheap flat for my money. Not that I’d live in Sevenoaks, mind you, because I still go out enough at night to value SE5’s centrality. No Croydon yet anyway. That will be the middle aged stage in my development as London commuter. I think the Telegraph even publish a guidebook about it.
I’ll shut up for a while.
Saw Esther Ranzen (sp??) on the tv the other morning. Apparently she’s standing as an independent in Luton.
Irrespective of her politics, what she was saying about independents got me thinking. Perhaps there are many like me who honestly couldn’t bring themselves to vote for any of the major parties at the moment.
But independents, who set up offices in shopping centres (like Esther is going to) and who aim to make themselves very accessible and to lobby on key issues (for her, its child safety) would probably do very very well at the next election.
Maybe we should seek someone local to stand as an independent for our area — someone who would cut the party line crap and actually be seen in our area, talk to the people who live here and have the guts to actually make some real changes.
Good idea. Mark could set up an office in Butterfly Walk..
Phil — we have trains too you know.
Denny Hill and Peckham Rye have loads of them. LJ has a few too..
And how do you get to Sevenoaks when the trains are screwed?
Sounds like a crap idea to me. If I was to leave London then I’d leave Britain. That’s a much more interesting alternative..
Esther Rantzen seems to be saying Luton South needs a facelift.
Agree with your position on dogs, Phil G.
If LDA Design leaves Burgess freer then they deserve it. Look at the clutter that is going to surround Battersea Power Station after so many years of dereliction.
But.
Now.
And this is just incred-ible.
Southwark have cut down two massive trees in Lucas Gardens right next to the swings. This was NOT in the plans shown to the people who turned up for their “consultative” waffle in the gardens.
WHAT A DUMB THING TO DO.
How stupid to show people “plans” then cut down two massive trees RIGHT NEXT TO THE SWINGS.
WHY SHOW “PLANS” THEN DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT?
SOMETHING ABSOLUTELY STUPID?
WHAT DUNDERHEAD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?
WHAT GRINNING WONK HAS “DELIVERED” THIS “IDEA”?
COME ON.
WHO ARE YOU?
WHERE DO YOU LIVE, NEAR LUCAS GARDENS?
YOU ARE AN EMPTY MAN. ONLY AN — EMPTY — MAN — COULD HAVE DONE THIS.
Yeah, life would be very different if I worked around London Bridge, like I used to, or if I could use the D Hill line. I’ll be sure to big the trains up if and when I sell up.
Bad news about the trees. I used that park a bit over the summer.
I think the ethos that drives such decisions is captured here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6385669/Council-workers-given-advice-on-how-to-eat-biscuits.html
Elf and SafeD quite rightly chopped down the trees. A small child could have climbed right to the top, then slipped and fallen! Camberwell New Road and Myatts Fields have lost most of their mature trees in the last couple of decades due to this fad.
Meanwhile Royal Mail collected the post in a SixT van yesterday, a sign of just-in-time things to come. In the red corner, it’s privatise-and-modernise. And in the red corner, it’s stay-public-and-stagnate. Both paths to a socialist vision of reducing the free movement of goods and entrepreneurship. Perhaps, in this land of welfare and entrenched wealth, we are right to disintegrate our Post Office and mail network, thumbing our nose at the land of opportunity which stubbornly preserves the national status of its own Postal Service. It feels good, politically.
Look forward to a near future of 50p stamps, a 5 day week service and self-printing HP and electricity bill hell.
Phil G’s got it. And if people are slipping on digestives then the horrible things responsible for those greasy autumn leaves don’t stand a chance.
Sad to hear about the Lucas trees Dagmar. This kind of thing seems to be happening more and more and it’s starting to make me angry. Grrrrrr.
A beautiful, big old (but perfectly healthy) tree in St Giles Churchyard that I used to look at over the rooftops was totally butchered a while back. One limb was damaged in a November storm, but I know enough to know that this wasn’t a problem. Before you could say “oooh macho” a bloke was up it with his meaty chainsaw swinging between his legs. Half an hour later all that was left was a 60ft trunk. Still there now, trying to sprout from the top and looking odd.
Sometimes wonder if the “tree specialists” employed by the council are in fact dendrophobes in disguise (http://www.fearoftrees.com/) dishing out retribution.
All is not lost though: http://www.treesforcities.org/
The BBC are milking this BNP thing. They are on to boost viewing figures not because of a belief in their right to be heard.
I am boycotting Thursday night’s show.
Yeah, I’m tired of hearing about the BNP too.
On strikes, I’m going to book a flight soon and I think I’ll avoid BA. Action is possible there too.
Similar issues to Royal Mail. The latter is a natural monopoly and I think there’s a strong case for never having privatised it. BA, which isn’t a natural monopoly, is in real trouble.
I think Royal Mail should be privatised. The current service is really bad and I would happily pay more for an improvement.
I don’t see why sensible city dwellers should subsidise people’s choice to live in the arse end of nowhere.
If the last 100 yards cannot be profitable then let’s have depots that you collect from, or get a weekly bulk delivery from for £5 or something..
If you could designate your own chosen depot and the depots were made to compete then I think we’d see the opening hours extend from the current state where I can’t collect a parcel from Camberwell except early on Sat morning.
It would be expensive and irregular in the countryside but that should be part of the trade off for open spaces, green fields and accommodating one eyed yokels.
This sounds like bad news for you Mark, is it the same issue?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/marketforceslive/2009/oct/22/punchtaverns-enterpriseinns
That’s shit.
TREE NEWS. The two trees in Lucas were decayed and dangerous. What happens is that the tree fellers put a felling notice up SOMEWHERE some five working days before the chop. These two trees were just by the swings, so locals were shocked to see them suddenly gone. We do not go nosing round for notices.
Maybe notices should be pinned on the trees. “This tree could fall on your head.” That would do the trick.
Branches often come down in Lucas Gardens and sometimes whole trees. There was that case in Wandsworth last year when a bloke in a van was killed by a falling tree.
So.
RIP Tree 148 Tree of Heaven; Tree 151 Cherry.
Please take notice hereby appended underwith that Councillor Ian Wingfield (LABOUR) is, as ever, exceptionally helpful, thorough and immediately responsive and that herewithstanding the Parks Tree Officer Rosalie Dobson is highly informative about reasons for the tree fellers arriving.
Please note that the trees in Camberwell are much liked because they are well designed and — it should be credited — well tended by Toms. The fellers are highly informative if you speak with them.
It is a credit to the citoyens of Camberwell that the trees’ sudden disappearance is virtually a barricade matter.
Perhaps the Southwark advertising & PR people could have a hand in informing the burgers about what happens to the trees and why. Trees are increasingly poplar for all kinds of reasons. Or would this be a waste of paper? Do not print this.
One of the trees on the Green has also gone.
One of the trees in our community garden, which theoretically belongs to the council, was also chopped down.
On the whole these chappies seem to know what they are doing. Despite what it seemed the tree was disease ridden as soon as you opened it up.
I think its all to do with autumn being the pruning season.
Sad though.
The parks are savagely pared back because they grow so well. Parks and Gristwood &Toms do a good job. Anyway who owns a window box knows what hard work it is.
McNeill Road by the railway line has some really interesting new trees recently planted by Southwark. Soon it will be a notable promenade. Clock the ying-yings while smelling the blossom.
Councillor Wingfield is probably the best of the 3. Remember, Brunswick Park folk, get rid of useless Sandra Rhule when the time comes.
So. I WAS going to stand as local councillor but am registered as living in Lambeth so cannot stand in the Southwark part of Camberwell. I know NO-ONE politically on the Lambeth side of Camberwell — which in part is what made me realise that we’ve got problems that aren’t JUST to do with social deprivation and the Maudsley and King’s customers.
SO. I’ve decided I can’t be bothered. And I’m not standing. I’m really annoyed/bored/pissed off/fed up but so what. I’ve always been.
Between working and living in SE5 and running a tied pub for fifteen years I’m pretty up to my back teeth in the bollocks of life in Camberwell. Like all those people I met fifteen years ago who said: ‘what you’re doing here is great but if you’re still here in three years we’ll eat our hat. Nothing decent ever lasts in Camberwell’.
There IS a lot going on that’s positive though what exactly it is, escapes me right now.
Mary Datchelor Development close to completion, Silk Road in the Observer, Peckham art scene in the NY Times, it’s all happening.
Where else would you live? Suggest somewhere, if it’s not Peckham then I bet I think it’s shit.
It’s all happening and then I’m lost for words. Reminder about open season on Saturday at St Mary’s Greek Cathedral where the developers are seeking OUR input on the Camberwell JobCentre / Camberwell Passage development. It better be a good vision. Visit the exhibition talk and be vociferous.
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B37rczdt9sryYTQ1MWYzNjYtOWJlYy00MTlhLWI5ZDQtZmY2Yjc5ZTk3Mjdm&hl=en_GB
I’d rather live in Pondicherry. Know nothing about it but I always liked the name. I know I would love living there.
I may be going to Pondicherry this December if I fly to Chennai instead of Bangalore or Colombo. I’ll let you know Mark.
If not, how about Sevenoaks or Surbiton? They could use a stylish pub out there I’ll bet.
The library was quite busy this morning. That’s a positive sign.
Also off-topic, but I noticed today that Somerfields on Denmark Hill is now operated by the Co-op. I think this must be recent — there are still a lot of Somerfield branded goods on sale. On the whole I welcome this, as I hope it will mean more fair-trade goods, food from responsibly-farmed or –fished sources, etc. But I did a modest price-check, and Morrisons seems to be significantly cheaper.
Carole, we have a fridge stacked with Somerfield-branded vintage cheddar cheese flogged off at end-of-the-world prices from that small Somerfield on Denmark Hill. There will be more “Fall of Saigon” bargains there as the handover to the Co-op is completed.
A Co-op card which will bring you many Co-oppy benefits including a generalistic nice feeling. For instance, the more Fair Trade Chilean Carmenere you drink from the Co-op, the nicer you will feel. Morrisons is cheaper, but ASDA is cheaper still. The Co-op is good on certain things, though, like they all are. All the supermarkets are doing very good deals on the new Nescafe, for instance, which is an excellently reformulated product rather than just rebranded. The Co-op has the best deal on that, interestingly enough, if you buy two large jars, for £5.50.
Mark Dodds, you seems tired of Camberwell. Sir, if you are tired of Camberwell, you are tired of knife. In that small Somerfield this week — Thug [to large good-natured African security chap]: “I’m going to stab you up.” Chap [cheerfully]: “Come on then!” Thug creeplily cycles off on pavement barging through old people, children, etc. Chap laughs, but nevertheless, nasty situation.
Mark, there are two leaf-clearing, line-cleaning locomotives which bomb through Camberwell together, numbered 98970 and 98920. There is no evidence of them on the net. They may be phantom or sort of mysterious, secret government machines like in the Avengers. Help trace them through your contacts — Harriet will know, she is a sort of an Avengers character. This will cheer you up. I will dig out the DS’s if you can report back.
The 99p shop currently has fab Matchbox-size models of the cars from the Bond films — the best is a white, amphibious Lotus Esprit, just beautiful.
This evening was the start of half term. Many small and medium enterprising children were full of joy in the parks all over Camberwell amongst the copper leaves beneath the sunset shining on the gold minarets of this unusually well-starred crossroads of humanity.
Today’s Times had a copy free copy of Muriel Spark’s “Girls of Slender Means”. She thrived in Camberwell for many years, sharpened beneath the magical pyramid of roads, journeys and personal stories that is the mysteriously alternatingly energising and enervating psychodome of Camberwell.
There be will be a biography of Gordon Brown published in January 2010 by the icily perceptive Suzie Mackenzie. The fallout will be huge. This will swing the election. There will be a hung parliament with Gordon Brown in the driving seat under exciting new Formula 1 rules.
the count of people who turned up to see what the frasers developers had to offer was, at 3.30 this afternoon, 32.
earlier this week, in a semi-informal setting, it appeared that some people in the council think that one of the big concerns with camberwell town centre is whether there should be a waitrose.
are we misunderestimating the camberwell grove gang or have we collectively slipped into a parallel universe?
Good to see you there Liliana. And Copeywolf, and Don and and and…
The look of the project is utterly DULL and uninspiring. DREADFUL RUBBISH. No better than the jobcentre it would replace. Why is this? Call Southwark and ask their useless planning department why. The recommendation from the planning department is that WE are looking for something ‘low key, low impact, in keeping with the existing buildings and sympathetic to the conservation area’. PAH!
This sort of visionless complacency on the part of local authorities makes my blood boil. Who the HELL do people at Southwark working on behalf of the local population think they are? Influencing development outcomes for areas they don’t live or even work in, and evidently don’t give a flying toss for, leaving a legacy other people — real people — have to live with for generations.
The simple fact is Cambeerwell has suffered decades of gross neglect by its local authorities. This has not changed, is not going to change unless the people who live here make it change for themselves.
The SE5 Forum AGM is this coming Thursday evening at IOP Decrespigny park. 7pm or thereabouts.
Come along and get involved, put yourself forward for running part of the Forum and make a bloody difference.
I thought the Frasers developers plans were exciting and bold. I liked the way the buildings facing Camberwell green would be built further back allowing more pavement space and following the line of the older parade of shops on the left. I liked the modern quirky design that looked of good quality and followed the lines and proportions of the older buildings around it. I liked the massing as I think that the plot needs a substantial building and the stepped rise from the older shops on the left to the height of the Farther Redcap opposite. I liked the idea of widening the passageway, retaining the York pennants stone and the use of glass and modern architecture. It is a really key position in Camberwell and I think it fits the bill. It was a little depressing having to listen to the older generation drone on about how it should be something traditional and small. There is a wonderful community spirit here unfortunately it often manifests itself in small town mindedness meeting every new development with negativity and suspicion stifling the much needed bold initiatives the area needs which then become a comprise of the mediocre and mundane. To say the proposal is “no better than the current Job Centre and the Quick-fit,” is frankly mind blowing.
mark, yes, it was good seeing you too yesterday
as my sarcasm cup overflowed or overflew yesterday, please feel free to comment
http://www.peoplesrepublicofsouthwark.co.uk/news/the-camberwell-experiment
Like NickW, I liked the look of the proposals, except that I thought the building facing Camberwell Green might be a little too high. I liked the way the developers had been careful to use London stock brick, and how the position of the windows and their relationship to each other echoed what you see in the surrounding buildings without actually copying them.
This is an enormously sensitive area — the heart of Camberwell, a conservation area, with some very attractive buildings already, and others hidden by crass redevelopment which will hopefully one day be restored to something like their original appearance. I think the planning department is absolutely right to expect new developments to be “in keeping with the existing buildings and sympathetic to the conservation area”.
Here’s one that I just noticed.
The worst post office in the world is to be demolished. Or did you all know this already.
I kind of like the plans. Anything is better than what currently exists.
http://planningonline.southwarksites.com/planningonline2/AcolNetCGI.exe?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeResultDetail&TheSystemkey=9532900
Click on documents near the top of the page.
If you can’t be bothered to wade through all the files, basically it will look like this: http://planningonline.southwarksites.com/planningonline2/DocsOnline/Documents/66388_1.pdf
Liliana: there is possibly a reason why some people in the council think that one of the big concerns with camberwell town centre is whether there should be a waitrose. It’s cos when Somerfield closed down someone on this forum said “I hope it’s going to be a waitrose”. (or words to that effect).
I love the Experiment webpage Liliana.
You folk who went to the Frasers meeting should be careful. Plod will mark you up as extremists from the fundamentalist Camberwell Online group. I sure hope the police get some cuts when the cuts come.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/25/police-domestic-extremists-database
Obviously the SE5 demographic could never support a higher-end retail site like Waitrose, but then what would the council know about its electorate.
Went to the Bear and Silk Road recently. Success has changed both.
On Friday night The Bear was the busiest I’ve ever seen it. The first few times I ate there we were one of about 3 tables and service was great. With all the tables full the charming service really struggled, and it started to get on my nerves. Had to ask them to clear plates, ask for more drinks, ask for the dessert menu etc. Food was great as usual — pork belly, lentils and a delightful boudin noir — but if they don’t up the staff numbers I won’t be rushing back.
Silk Road. Most times I’ve been here it’s been overrun with loud groups of young Chinese. Now, perhaps with the Observer effect, the demographic has shifted markedly. That doesn’t affect the food of course, which was hearty and generous. However, once over the novelty of the few Xinjiang dishes (pilaf rice was a new one for me this time, and the fried noodles were great as per) you have to question whether the Chinese dishes are that good. The bak choi weren’t as crispy as they once were here, and the pork was too sweet, and swimming in grease. I think in some instances you’d be better off with a good Chinese restaurant instead.
Both of these experiences left me with that strange, slightly selfish irritation you get of having “found” somewhere early on and then when half of London catches on it’s not as good, somehow less authentic, whatever that means. So while it’s pleasing that these places are doing well and aren’t going to be boarded up shells on our high street, it’s also not. Oh well, onto the next thing…
@ Camberwell Experiment
Good luck to PRoS. Most Camberwell-wide community organisations before it have suffered from having a majority of members who are white, upper middle class, property owning, car owning, and South-Camberwell-dwelling — a fatal combination from the perspective of deprived North Camberwell areas.
Camberwell’s main problem is that too many people leave it, and not enough visit it, to spend money. Also that policy-makers and campaigners either do not accept that most disposable income travels by car, or pretend not to see this in order to protect their own lifestyles of regular escape from Camberwell.
This response by Morrisons to the Core Strategy was interesting. The outdated retail report referred to can be found here. Note paragraph 6.3 on comparison goods.
Of course, planners have interpreted the dictat that there should be no new shops outside certain areas to mean that all retail activity outside these areas should cease. An approach which affects Camberwell more than any other area. The future health of Camberwell Green itself depends heavily on the development of a local shopping culture in outer Camberwell, sustained in part by visiting trade as in Lordship Lane.
oh noes i hope extreme glaring and use of long words are still legal?
thanks, phil g & regen
question: do we know what happens at the council’s planning meetings? i tried looking at things a couple of times in the past but just could not stay awake long enough to process any of the information :S
i mean, i know that planning applications are discussed, but what i’d like to know is whether potential spaces are discussed at any public meetings before they are passed onto developers to propose whatever they’re told to. i think having timely access to this information would be very important. thanks
@Royal Mail
There is a sparkling new alternative to the Post Office/ couriers I found this weekend. It’s called Collect Plus, and is really rather ingenious for parcel delivery.
Imagine you’re sending an eBay parcel to the Highlands — normal courier cost about £18, plus you have to be in all day when the courier collects, and your buyer has to be in all day until the courier delivers their end. Well now for the bargain price of £3.79 you can use Collect Plus.
This involves taking your package (max 10kg) to a local convenience store whenever you like (3000+ locations UK-wide, nearest one to me is half a mile away on Coldharbour Lane towards Brixton). It gets picked up and delivered to a convenience store near the recipient — in my case, 0.37 miles away in the local petrol station. Which of course means the buyer can pick up the parcel when they like, and at hours much more convenient than a local Post Office depot.
To me, this is the essence of progress.
http://www.collectplus.co.uk/
Not that I is bovvered, but Mark Steel offers a pointed analysis of industrial relations in the post office.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-royal-mail-is-to-blame-for-our-broken-society-obviously-1806199.html
@Dagamar (10/23/2009 at 7:41 pm) — you should write for the Internet.
Oh wait…
On restaurants, Ganapati was quiet Saturday night, although apparently only because I was there between sittings. Food was good as normal.
On the leisure center, you have go around the back to get in nowadays. The front is being refurbed. Can someone ask them to turn the heating down?
On art galleries, there’s a video exhibition at SLG (yes another one). It’s very dark in there. I sort of got it, I think. Not sure.
Gabe, is Dagmar here, not Dagamar. The Indian summer is here as the thugees say in old India. As the Dalai Lama says, there is no us and them any more, due to the internet, etc. Still, maybe in India they would like a British winter, with snow and jollity.
SLG show takes a lot of looking, it’s true, but at least it is there and truly cool.
Whoops, a tyupo.
Or Dagmar meet Dagamar, maybe. nah.
“Tis nothing. What a tropical day in Lucas Gardens. The mushroom people are out, some looking for the funny ones, some for the gourmet ones. Does anyone know if part of the park is being sold with the council buildings? Rumours persist that a sizeable chunk will be sold off. The residents would be sitting ducks, sipping their G&T, with people peering in, deprived of a large part of their park.
we wrote about it back in may this year here http://www.peoplesrepublicofsouthwark.co.uk/news/lucas-gardens-executive-style#at
i’ll try and get in touch with the people from wilson’s tra to see what’s going on
x
SE% Forum AGM tomorrow night at Institute of Psychiatry, De Crespigny Park.
IF you are concerned about Camberwell do come along and take it on. You will be amazed what can be achieved with concerted effort.
http://www.se5forum.org/
The environmental impact of owning a large dog is comparable to having a large 4WD and driving 10,000km.
Too short notice for the Forum tonight, sorry I can’t make it. Annoying as I’d like to go see. Please sort the Noodles sign.
Short notice and poor show SE5 Forum!
I get an email TODAY informing me of a meeting TONIGHT. it shows all email addresses, which is highly annoying. And now I am in a reply all cycle!
Poor show!
Two Johns?; Camberwell Blog goes global
Sorry. Had one of those “we need to move out of this place” weeks and then a chance to try and do something positive comes along too late and shares my personal data so I freaked out. Anyone go?
yes i did, it was a pretty straightforward agm, with the usual agm business, john stewart of lambeth transport group (i think) did a little q&a session about the save the south london line campaign, as boris has finally agreed to meet up with the deputation.
one of the things we (people’s republic of soutwhark) will be pushing though is a campaign to urgently do something about camberwell town centre (which lies beyond camberwell grove and includes camberwell new road, camberwell road etc); ‘something’ means considerably more than making sure that facades are in keep with the conservation area requirements; it may also mean that yet another shop may not be on top of the list of priorities for hundreds of deprived people living on the other side of camberwell green.
a lot of the people living in the area are keen to improve their surroundings. a lot of the people have really good ideas too, and real positive change could happen. it would be great if se5 forum was to formally get behind this too, as i know those board members i spoke to are keen, so i guess we wait and see?
Moral quandary: I’d like to join the London Fitness Network which gives access to many council gyms across London, and thus one near my work.
To do so I would have to enrol and pay monthly fees to a council gym, even if it’s one I don’t use often. Peckham is my nearest. But I was a member there for 2 years and found it an awful, truly shytt place with the world’s laziest staff. I am loathe to give the money to them as it would up their income and numbers.
So, I may join at East Dulwich, but then the cash still goes to Southwark and the awful company they’ve outsourced leisure to — Fusion.
Or I could join through Camden council and make things more expensive for the same scheme by paying a higher joining fee.
Or I could recognise that keeping the money local would ultimately be better than giving it to Camden out of spite, and go back to Peckham, humbled.
Check this out, it seems the place has long been awful.
http://www.southwark.gov.uk/SouthwarkDiscussion/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=794
Here is some blue sky thinking: The pedestrianisation of the western end of Camberwell Church Street.
http://j.mp/224gt4
It wouldn’t cost much and would have a revolutionary affect on Camberwell. It would also help motorists because it would relieve congestion by splitting traffic while also shortening journeys on more suitable roads. The proposal would also speed-up bus journeys and would help make cycling safer. Most importantly it would vastly improve the living environment around Camberwell.
What do you think?
from what i gather, it’d be a partial pedestrianisation, as buses would still be running? unless i got it all wrong?
last night at the se5 forum agm, someone said how the camberwell church street/peckham road is the major lorry route to dover and is allegedly untouchable. i dont think anything is personally and i would very much love to see bits of roads closed off to all but cyclists and pedestrians.
last year we were talking to people about the festival of everything, where the idea was to close the whole of camberwell road/walworth road for traffic, for one day only, bring all the communities on either sides of the road out together, lawn a stretch of the road and just have a picnic etc etc, and while there was a lot of enthusiasm from the artistic community in the area, the council people didnt feel the tfl would be up for discussions.
last week, the australian government turned a whole road in sydney i think into one massive picnic area and thousands of people came down to have breakfast (twas on the beeb somewhere, cant find it anymore)
NickW, The details of that pedestrianisation plan are ill-thought through. Camberwell Church St. has its problems, but it would be absurd to divert traffic on to a narrower street with more serious problems. Southampton Way is a relatively narrow road that passes through an almost entirely residential area. The few local shops are already in a state of serious decline and the last thing it needs is heavier traffic and congestion. Wyndham Road is all residential except for the secondary school. Albany Road is large enough for traffic, but it is already congested, and is it ideal to direct more traffic down a road that runs between a park, a large estate, a school, a sure start children’s centre, an adventure play ground etc?
You really can’t solve Camberwell’s problems by pushing the traffic onto smaller roads. You need to consider the area as a whole not just central Camberwell. The solution has to lie in reducing overall traffic levels by reducing the unnecessary use of private cars, shifting journeys onto public transport or bicycle.
found it!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8324527.stm
@ James J
Hi James,
Thanks for the comments.
Let me answer your points:
Southampton Way has far less residential housing than Peckham Road, Camberwell Church Street and the eastern end of Camberwell New Road combined. It also has far fewer shops than Camberwell Church Street. The housing on Southampton way is predominantly newer and has better sound insulation. Without on street parking, or need for bus lane, the road is the same width or wider. The section of affected road is shorter and the shops may actually benefit from more passing trade. The proposal would mean only local traffic using this road. There would be need for remodeling and loss of on street parking however even in the short term the number of people benefiting, I believe, would be far greater while in the long term an improved town centre would improve the whole area.
Wyndham Road – Yes this is currently a residential road and remodeling would be required including the loss of on street parking, however the residential housing here is predominantly newer, better sound insulated and set someway back from the road or above the road in blocks. I believe the road to be more suitable to traffic than the current route. (This is also the case with John Ruskin Street)
Albany Road – as you identified is currently suitable with little remodeling. The number of pedestrians crossing here is far less than the current route through a town centre.
I did look at the wider area and put some work into this vision. The main relief route via John Ruskin Street and Albany road to the far more suitable A2 is two thirds shorter than the current A202 route which passes through 3 town centers (Peckham, Camberwell and New Cross). The proposed route passes through 0 town centers.
AH wow Liliana – that is inspirational.
I’m afraid I don’t accept your description of Southampton Road. It is a narrow road, certainly much narrower than Peckham Road and Camberwell Church Street. There is very little on street parking on most of Southampton Way, precisely because it is narrow. In contrast, the Camberwell Church St./Peckham Road route is effectively a four lane road. When the 343 stops at a bus stop it will block traffic on that side of the road. Furthermore, without any parking, increased traffic will not be of any benefit to the local shops.
As for the quantity of residential accommodation, I am not able to quote numbers. However, once the Elmington Estate redevelopment gets under way, the entire route from Camberwell Road to Peckham Road will be residential apart from the small industrial estate at Parkhouse Street (which the council would like to convert to residential use in the long term), the Southwark College campus and the Oliver Goldsmith Primary School.
The case for Wyndham Road is even worse. It is currently traffic calmed to stop people using it as a short cut. Directing traffic past a school is a recipe for accidents.
Really, I think the solution has to be something other than shifting traffic on to smaller roads. For example, why are international coaches travelling into central London anyway? Why not stop them somewhere with good transport links outside of the centre. Perhaps somewhere like Stratford, with coaches travelling on the A13 to the Dartford Tunnel and then the motorway to the coast.
James — It would only be local traffic going down Southampton Way. The current route, HGVs and all, passes schools as well eg. Sacred Heart.
Regarding width — Camberwell New Road is of course wider there are 4 lanes however what I am saying is you wouldn’t need 4 lanes as you don’t need the bus lanes, the two lanes on Southampton road would be fine with some extra local traffic probably not even that much. I don’t have stats but by looking at the traffic on Church Street — buses, foreign coaches and HGV it is fairly easy to deduce that most of it is long distance and so would therefore be diverted another way.
Re the 343 – it stops is every 15mins that’s 4 buses an hour. I am sure local traffic can wait behind the bus as it currently does.
We are not talking about ALL the coaches and lorries and buses that all travel down Camberwell Church Street at present but fairly distributing a portion of the local traffic away from where the largest concentration of people live work and shop.
I like your bus terminal idea but this is not something that can be achieved locally. It doesn’t stop the lorries and it means an extra change for people. Listen the project needs more work and professional eyes but current situation around Camberwell Green cannot continue. It is one of the noisiest junctions in London.
Nick, The 343 is certainly supposed to be more often than that: every 6–7 min according to londonbusroutes.net but that’s complicated by the fact they do tend to travel in groups of two or three.
It’s good that you are giving this some thought. Sorry, if I’ve sounded very negative, but I’m afraid I’m not convinced by the plan. Anyway, perhaps I’m in a minority. It’s shame that the funding isn’t available for the kind of project that might really solve the problem, but in fact even the plan to pedestrianise Camberwell Church St. is out of the hands of Southwark as it is a Red Route and thus controlled centrally by TfL not by the council. It’s the same issue with Elephant & Castle and the Bricklayer’s Arms flyover.
NickW — impressive research and detail, although I disagree with the main thrust for similar reasons to James J. For a fuller response, including why it would be very bad for cyclists, see here.
Interesting idea Nick but I think it’s unworkable, for the reasons above and more. I hate the volume of traffic on Peckham Rd but don’t think your solution would help. Also I think pedestrianisation as a concept is overrated. Sorry, I don’t have the answers either. Old infrastructure quite unable to deal with modern volume. That’s London.
So anyway, was in Peckham Morrisons today and some African bloke comes up to me and asks if I speak French.
How charming I thought! This middle aged chap, perhaps from the Cote d’Ivoire or Senegal, is going to ask me ou est le shampooing, or pourquoi is food anglais so vraiment expensive.
I was delighted. Interaction with another human in Peckham Morrisons at last! And in French! Surely this was multicultural life in the capital!
I replied that yes I speak OK French and he smilingly continued:
“Then perhaps you could help me, there’s a bag of my things over there (he waved at some mysterious point a few aisles away) and I just need one pound to be able to buy it all. If you could help me by giving me a pound…”
Has anyone tried what used to be the Peckham Experiment now may be called Bellenden Brasserie, though I can’t remember the name. Any good?
It appears to have shut down. It was taken over a few months ago purporting to be an African restaurant. But it rarely seems open, certainly not at lunch. Shame because it was once a good place to eat.
I see the Silver Buckle is being offered for lease — http://www.pub-enterprises.co.uk/pages/PubDetails?pp360divid=PubDetails-body-right&pp360divsrc=/__80256825005C84E2.nsf/%28webPubByPropertyRef%29/A70F1CCB76D10C728025763800423F6E%3FOpenDocument — just imagine for the initial investment of £21,000 or so you could be running one of Camberwell’s top pub venues!
Speaking of pubs the Grand Union on Camberwell Grove (formerly The Grove/BRB/Grove House) I see is opening on Thursday http://www.gugroup.co.uk/content/camberwell.html
Launch party — http://us1.campaign-archive.com/?u=4a3bf5e6882abe7172d3c4ab2&id=cb6278a077
Had burger and chips at the Brixton G.U. this weekend. Lovely. Seems more likely to succeed then the previous Grove effort (which seemed to be aimed at retirees), especially as the gourmet burgers are good value.
My reflex is to favour any scheme to improve the central Camberwell landscape and improve transport links. But since we chose to splurge a trillion quid of our money re-inflating asset bubbles, we may have to wait. When my kids have finished paying it off in taxes they can lobby for the tube extension in 2043.
Too crowded out to think about pedestrianisation of anything other than my life at the moment I’m afraid. BUT on the Silver Buckle — it’s in a terrible state if dis-repair. I reckon it needs minimum £100K spending on it before a penny goes on a decorative refurbishment just to get it into a lettable condition. Frank of Caravaggios agrees by the way . So S&N Pub Enterprises reckon £21K ingoings on a 25 year fully repairing insuring lease is possible. Anyone taking that on those terms would be down the pan within 18 months and then liable for the £100K that’s needed to bring the premises up to code.
Not a good deal if you ask me.
If one could buy the freehold on the other hand…
Lucas Gardens is saved. The Wilson Road residents association and Cllr Wingfield’s campaign has come good. The council offices by the park are to be taken by the Univ of the Arts who will not seek to annex any part of the park. We must welcome these intelligentsia in some fitting Camberwell way.
Had full English breakfast at Le Petit Parisien on Saturday.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdodds/4060421701/sizes/l/
Service willing, waitress pleasant and quick, struggled to keep up with number of customers, double egg and chips for the youngest boy arrived a GOOD ten minutes before three FEB’s made with good ingredients but sausages a little on the undecooked side. Waitress did say when Egg and chips arrived that the others would be in five minutes which seemed well informed but did force me to wonder ‘why make it and send it out if it’s a long time before the rest is ready?’. Condimentsleft some to be desired. Pepper damp and solid in cellar. Mustard had ketchup in it and around the ramekin which was grubby. Brown sauce about half a cm in the bottom of the bottle, most of which stayed in the bottle. Butter fridge hard, French par baked bread oddly stale tasting.
Not sure I’d rush back.
Had Sunday lunch at The Sun and Doves. Service very quick, food arrived soon all at the same time. You might think that’s only to be expected considering I own the place but you’d be more surprised how much it’s ‘family gets held back’ when we go there. Pork with all the trimmings more than I and the woman could eat. Staff said other customers manage to eat everything without too much trouble. Fennel gratin was flavoursome but really bland looking because undercooked. It needs to be caramelised. Too much carrot and swede mash. Pork was tender, thick slices, tasty with fairly decent crunchy crackling. The boys had a Cajun chicken burger and a hamburger — they say ouor burgers are the best they’ve eaten as do quite a few of our customers.
Special announcement. Robin — our new Head Chef started today. We’ve not had a ‘Head Chef’ for three years. The above issues will change.
Sunday Roast at The Sun and Doves:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2729/4070393890_3e643c111c_b.jpg
Dagmar — that’s great news about Lucas!
Great review on Le PP, Mark. Love the condiment detail. My mate went for Sunday Lunch at your place at the weekend, and he said it was really good.
LDA’s design for Burgess Park was declared the winning proposal by the council this morning.
http://tinyurl.com/ldadesign
If you’re interested, there is more info on LDA’s website:
http://www.lda-design.co.uk/news/burgess_park/
LDA wins it.
http://www.southwark.gov.uk/Public/NewsArticle.aspx?articleId=39811
I’m new to Camberwell & this blog, so hello all, nice to see such a strong indication of community spirit…
Great news about Lucas Gardens! Re: the trees getting the chop — I heard from one tree surgeon that they err heavily on the side of caution because they don’t want to get the blame for any headbanging branches etc. Any rot, wind-damage or even growing too close to a building is enough to get you the chop. There was some real heavy pruning going on with some of those trees, alot of it seemed unnecessary, I hope they recover.
I’m one of the folk who recently moved into South House (to keep squatters out until they figure out what they’re gonna do with it). Dagmar: that may’ve been m’lady & I you noticed looking for the funny mushrooms — none to be found unfortunately! Tho lots of lovely little ones all the same… I did some research online (can’t seem to find it now, was on the Colliers www) & the property brochure did show a red hatched area close to South House that they were offering as part of the deal.
I was under the impression that no sale has yet been confirmed, and apparently it’ll take 4 months for the paperwork to go thru anyway. But I hope the uni people buy it. It’s a really lovely old building — too lovely to be chopped up into flats, a bit spooky in places but I guess that’s to be expected from an old mental hospital.
Viva South House!
@ TheMule, I went to a party at East House on Halloween. It was great. I don’t know if you guys have the same, but they have amazing rooms.
Yes, the halloween party — they were kind enough to invite us over (in exchange for a few office chairs!) but we had other plans, so I haven’t seen their place yet… we do have some good spaces tho! If you’re ever passing by and you see us sat at the window feel free to come say hello — we’ve had a few drunks do so: a little more coherance is sometimes not such a bad thing.