A Community Cinema for Camberwell?
Published by monkeycat | Filed under Art, Development, Events, General, Guest Author, Politics
Hello there, and yet another post by another guest poster. Apologies for the very long post but just couldn’t get it any shorter.
As many of you will no doubt have heard by now the former cinema and bingo hall has been bought by Merinbrand (whoever they are) on behalf of (we assume) the Redeemed Christian Church of God or RCCG for short. We believe that contracts have been exchanged but completion is not due to take place until the beginning of March. The chances of us stopping the sale are slim, but I do not think that should prevent us from trying.
We started a campaign this Monday to try and get more information and transparency over the sale of the building by Gala Bingo. Last week I was told that the information was confidential and that I would have to wait until the sale had gone through. I think it is safe to assume that they were a little surprised at how quickly we managed to gather the troops, and very soon after our photo in front of the cinema today we had the head of PR sending out emails absolving themselves of all responsibility and hanging the new (potential) owners out to dry.
This is thanks to people like Victor, a.k.a. Eusebiovic, who set up a Facebook page which has nearly 200 fans already and is growing by the second. Also thanks go to Copeywolf (James), Liliana of PROS,Melanie Rimmer of Camberwell Arts and last but not least Mark Dodds and Barbara Pattinson from the SE5 forum for all their help. I have created a website (www.CamberwellCommunityCinema.webs.com) for the campaign to keep the cinema for the community and I have no idea where all you people are coming from but the response has been (almost) unanimous against having RCCG move in.
I think this is a real chance for Camberwell to come together as a community. And I don’t just mean those who use the internet. I mean all those who loved the bingo and now have to go to Surrey Quays (because that’s convienient). I mean all those for whom Christianity is not their religion. I mean all the artists looking for a space. I mean something to stop Time Out banging out yet another edition about the “great” East End. I mean all those who want Camberwell to have a focal point we can be proud of.
RCCG will have to change the commercial use from D2 (Cinema, music and concert halls) to D1 (Places of worship and Church Halls). This is where we as a community come in. We cannot let this happen. There are so many reasons why this should not be allowed. So, write to your MP, write to your councillors. Tell the press, tell Boris. Shout it out. Email your friends. Join the facebook page. Tell your friends to join the facebook page. Write to famous Camberwellians. Make people notice. MAKE A FUSS!
To be fair I think most councillors are firmly behind us and John Friary has been helping already to ask questions. There is a Camberwell Community Council meeting next Wednesday 3rd March at 7pm at Southwark Town Hall. Please go. We need to let Southwark Council know that Camberwell matters. We need them to stop palming us off with disjointed plans which come to nothing. On top of that, there is an election coming up. That should concentrate the mind wonderfully!
We will be getting some posters to put around Camberwell. I will put them on the website for you to download and print off. Stick them on windows of shops. Talk to your neighbours.
MAKE A FUSS!
Camberwell deserves better.
Tom.
a.k.a. Monkeycat.
can i borrow/repost that picture on people’s republic so slp can have their exclusive ones?
x
Take whatever photo you want.
Tom
Tom
Great Post…I can’t believe how fast we are moving but I’m more than delighted and heartened at the response so far from everyone involved…it’s amazing!
Once the poster becomes prominent in Camberwell and the South London Press story comes out, and the facebook and website gets more popular then this thing will really start to roll!
There is a lot of goodwill towards Camberwell, we often underestimate it…I think the main reason for that is our fatigue and frustration at our main local Council who seem to take literally the “All’s Well in Camberwell” inscribed on the coat of arms on the facade of the Town Hall building — and consistently overlook what is directly on their doorstep.
So many people live,work,study and pass through here and they all realise the potential…I think the reason for that is because once upon a time that potential was fulfilled and was an actual reality. Most possibly, London biographer/writer Peter Ackroyd could be able to explain it far better than myself.
And yes, I long for the day when I can open the Time Out magazine and read all about how great they think our Cinema/Cultural/Community Centre really is…also what a fine place Camberwell is to spend an afternoon or evening and visit all our Bars,Cafes,Pubs and Restaurants and watch Dulwich Hamlet F.C and knew it all along before everybody else…because they are the coolest cats and have their fingers on the pulse of London!
See You All Very Soon,
Victor
How do these things work? ie. is there still time to block the sale, I think I saw a date of 1st March.
sg
If you scroll down Tom’s (a.k.a monkeycat) original post then you will see the link to the website and then follow the instructions…particularly the template letter to all our Local Councillors,M.P’s,Cabinet Members and even our Major Mr.Boris Johnson!
There is also a facebook link, so if you haven’t joined make sure you do this and recommend us to all your friends,family and work colleagues etc…
Webpage
http://www.camberwellcommunitycinema.webs.com/
Facebook
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Camberwell-United-Kingdom/Cinema-for-Camberwell-Green/314480941967
Get copying, cutting, pasting and tapping away people. This is too good an opportunity for Camberwell to miss. Why could there not be part use for a church in a community wide arts and culture centre?
Googling around RCCG, I came across this link which suggests there were a couple of similar applications in Crystal Palace and Penge. A comment on the link suggests one at least was blocked. Worth contacting to see what lessons might be learnt?
http://www.readmyday.co.uk/JohnGetgood/archive/2009/11/06/planning-application–for-church-in-franklin-rd.htm
As for the RCCG, I’m assuming a majority of people in the area, and one would hope local councillors, would raise an eyebrow about some of their beliefs and practices.
See here — http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/12/13/london-mayor-draws-fire-for-attending-crazy-exorcist%E2%80%99s-christmas-carol-service/
And according to the wiki page their goals are:
1. To make heaven.
2. To take as many people as possible with them.
3. To have a member of RCCG in every family of all nations.
4. To have a parish in every 5mins walking distance and 5mins drive in every city of the world.
I will follow with interest RCCG’s efforts to break into the Saudi Arabian religious “market” as they strive to have a presence in “every city of the world”.
Ambitious is the nicest word I can think of that describes their expansion plans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redeemed_Christian_Church_of_God
you guys are really out of your mind to even think of stopping a church from taking over the hall, what is the problem with you guys, can you buynthe place why not shut up and let the church (RCCG) alone.
if you guys want to go to your early graves then keep on disturbing the church. i bet you guys will not last long.
‘on behalf of (we assume) the ..RCCG.’
Why have we assumed this?
OMG!
We should definately embrace the RCCG, what could be of more benefit than another on of the ubiquitous places of worship pedalling narrow minded views, basing their whole outlook on life on a piece of fiction?
Eh?
Oh.
Power to the people!
Speaking of which has anyone tried the new free 545 bus service along Coldharbour Lane?
Its come about because of the closure of the road at Hinton Road which means that double deckers have to be diverted via Herne Hill and Denmark Hill (adding 30+ minutes to journeys) Enough people protested to TfL and Valerie Shawcross, GLA member for Southwark/Lambeth and she has got Tfl to introduce the single decker service free of charge — 5 buses an hour 4:30 am — midnight. Not bad
See http://www.valshawcross.com/index.php?id=78&tx_ttnewstt_news=504&tx_ttnewsbackPid=2&cHash=ba89671d58
@ Silkyfunz: We are happy to have your comments, but please do not make any more violent threats.
I have deleted the comment because it is not appropriate in this discussion.
Please keep it clean and polite.
The same goes to anybody else thinking of making comments that attack others.
Attacking people because of their religious beliefs is not going to help. It will do nothing more that polarise the community.
Also Silkyfunz, I am not against the RCCG, but I do want the building to be as inclusive as possible and I am not convinced that a church is totally inclusive to the community as a whole.
It is such a large and important building that it is not simply a question of a private sale. There is a much wider public interest at heart.
I am sure that had we been given the opportunity we would have happily made an offer to buy it.
However, we would like to be able to discuss things in an honest and open manner.
“if you guys want to go to your early graves then keep on disturbing the church. i bet you guys will not last long.”
Wishing you all the best too slikyfunz.
This is not an anti-faith campaign. As has already been said, it is a campaign against the loss of an important local landmark building that could serve the community as a whole, irrespective of backgrounds and beliefs. And it does not need to be at the expense of RCCG’s expansion plans.
Hardly cause for large-scale premature death, in my opinion.
Nigerian churches have such a great reputation for spreading love and understanding.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html
http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org/node/18
Praise DA LORD!
anyone know what happened on corner of camberwell new rd/camberwell green — iron railings all broken, theres police tape around bits, looks quite savage (as in something massive/heavy must’ve caused it)?
The earth is the Lord’s and everything in it, God has a need for the building and He is going to have come what may, because He owns everything. The church is up for peace and it is only a people filled with the spirit of God that can help improve and better the community and world a large
Omo Jesu,
phew, I’m just glad he didn’t have a need for the old Silver Buckle then.
Looking forward to it opening as the Tiger — anyone going tonight??
Another place of people filled with spirit .. but probably from Diageo rather than your bloke — but they should also help improve and better the community, given time.
Might pop along and have a peak.
god is in the house
Perhaps we should keep religion and football out of this. For instance, just because Catholic Celtic had a black hero goalscoring god from protestant Sweden in the form of Henry Larrson doesn’t mean that they’re not infinitely more broad-minded than those limited, hobbling bigots from Rangers.
Let peace rain.
Henry Larrson! Come on, let’s ‘ave a larf. Henrik Larrson, that should be. Or Thierry Henry, maybe, or Lenny Henry — he’d get it.
The wooden play structures in both Lucas and Warwick Gardens are coming along well — the fellows building them are working in all weathers and the wheel tracks in the mud of Lucas look like something out of the First World War.
TWO WORLD WARS AND ONE WORLD CUP!!!!
Whoopsy…
We should all embrace rich diversity — and dem churchery are rich, except for the poor old C of E whose clergy are as poor as church mice.
Our two cats got a mouse this morning and shared it. Spring is near.
Come on Camberwell, we can handle it.
I would like to appeal to everybody who wishes to post on this board/blog that I am totally against insulting comments that are nothing more than mean spirited and spiteful…It’s not helpful, under any circumstances.
PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SUCH A NEGATIVE STANCE!
The point of the campaign and the reason why I was enthusiastic and motivated to try and encurage others to get the ball rolling and assist was this:
1) GalaCoral — Closed down the bingo hall at extremely short notice and in their questionable wisdom decided to sell the building to a private bidder — without at the very least, being gracious enough to consult the local community at large.
2) We know that a Christian Evangelical Church (RCCG) have won the closed bid to use the building for the foreseeable future.
— They may have purchased it
— They may be renting it
— They may be using the building free of charge, while a property developer sits on their investment and allows the building to deteriorate and gives them an excuse to ask permission to demolish and re-develop the land.
These are all potential scenarios and are avenues that we have to assertain the information to.
It’s not particularly helpful to make flippant,ill-judged,sweeping statements concerning the religious practices of West African nations particularly when our collective knowledge is basic and rudimentary of the actual situation. I am though absolutely convinced that there are a significant number of individuals from that part of the world who question certain dubious religious practices themselves.
We have to inform ourselves of the beliefs,practices and mandate of the (RCCG)and their credibility as an organization — maybe they are genuine, maybe not, we don’t yet know for sure.
Only when this has been done can we present this information to facilitate our Local Councillors and MP’s (who already, in principle we have support from) to make a decision whether (RCCG) would be of benefit to the Camberwell Community — at large.
4) It is the last cinema/theatre building left in Camberwell and it’s Grade II listed with English Heritage. At least one Grade II listed Cinema has already been lost (Camberwell Odeon r.i.p 1994) and doubtless there were many others which were not discovered or listed in good time to prevent their loss.
Good, I drink my tea.
Keep it positive!
Kind Regards
Victor (Eusebiovic)
“The church is up for peace”. That’s more like it, Omo Jesu. Good to hear from you. Please remind slikyfunz of this (assuming he doesn’t want us to die prematurely in a peaceful way).
Your church is welcome. But please remember that many potential brothers and sisters would dearly like the Cinema as a hub for the whole community, as it has been all along. There is enough real estate around here to accommodate everybody.
A cinema as a pub, exactly, like the ‘Spoons in Forest Hill. A pub is a broad church, in that even us ugliest broads look nice after a few gargles. Ha-ha-harrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Ah, perspective and distortion. For some reason I was reminded today of that most moving scene in Milton’s “Paradise Lost”, when the fallen angel
“Looks down in wonder at the sudden view
Of all this world at once…”
guys let me tell you something that you dont know. the building has already being dedicated to God and so there is nothing you can do about it, you just have to accept it that is the truth what ever is dedicated to God no one tempers with it. go and read your bible when the philistines tempered with the ark of God what happened to them? i am a member of the church the branch at peckham rye lane, there is nothing that can be done the building belongs to (RCCG).
Its a shame that people in a country founded on believe in God and who have become so great by it now turn their back on God and think it was all by their knowledge and power.
So many things happen to our children and we hear evil report in the news daily but we do not take time to think of how things went wrong.
The presence of a church in this community will actually help develop and increase the level of peace, reducing violence crime and untoward behavior in our children.
And some one antagonizes it. if you dont consider that God in his mercy sees it fit to help you solve that which your ideals have not been able to solve by bringing a church to the community. please think again.
hey Guyz.…
c’mon lets give them a break {church people}
Their God i was told is fierceful in battle,eventhough though He could be Prince of Peace. Dont you Guyz know no man can win a war with GOD !!!!
” HIS ” track records speaks for itself
Do YOU not know that HE owns the keys to the heARTS OF KINGS AND PRINCES.….
WHILE ARE U CRYING OVER SPILLED MILK !!!
THEY OWN IT ALREADY .….
PLS GO LOOK FOR A JOB !!!
AND ALWAYS FEEL FREE TO COME HAVE A CUP OF TEA @ THE old bingo { dat sounds like a name of a dog } lol
pls move on people !!!!!
i don’t like the tone of this plan to oppose a religious organisation called RCCG. i learnt that they have been a part of the community for the past 21yrs.
The Islamic league are planning to join them in voicing out their concerns. We need peace not bombs in camberwell. This is becoming a religious war and you know this bloody blacks from Africa. they are nuiseance and THEY must BE STOPPED BY ALL MEANS.……UP WHITE SUPREMACY!!!!!!!!!!!!
There’s need for everyone to understand that the greatest ‘benefit’ is for Almighty God to come and dwell amongst you all in camberwell.
1. The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it –Psalm 24 vs 1
2. Everything on earth exists for God Almighty and even through Him all things exist also –Hebrews 2 vs 10
3. The property in question will be a place of worship and the name of the MOST HIGH GOD will surely be honoured and God Himself will come amongst you all and bless you. So I believe everyone should be glad about this init-Exodus 20 vs 24b
4.Finally, we are a peace-loving people and it’s reflected in our doctrine of peace which CHRIST JESUS(who’s coming back)teaches us. Therefore, ALL ARE INVITED AND WELCOME @ the house of God –Act 10 vs 34
Thank you for your time.
Check out the front page of the South London Press.
“Bingo is a go go Church is a no no”
Great headline.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Camberwell-United-Kingdom/Cinema-for-Camberwell-Green/314480941967
yawn.…
so what was The Tiger opening like then? Any reviews?
This is hard to keep up with. Can I sum it up thus: the RCCG already own the joint but don’t have the right planning permission, and that’s what we’re hoping to change.
Good luck anyway. You have my support, though I don’t do Facebook.
So who’s who in that photo then?
I’ll try The Tiger ASAP. It looks completely unfinished from the outside though. They must need the cashflow.
Pizza lovers don’t forget that Bar Story and Il Giardino opposite both do pizzas. Gia’s were OK. Not tried BStory’s.
A warm welcome to those members of this marvellous church’s congregation. This moment is very special for Camberwell. Our shared concerns that the future of the bingo hall should benefit the whole community is bringing together many people an exciting opportunity to meet and get to know each other for the first time.
The advantage you guys from the church have over all the rest of us put together — and this includes all those thousands of people who used the building as a bingo venue for decades — the main advantage you have in this situation is that you knew the building was going to be sold — while we — none of us — knew nothing. NOTHING AT ALL.
‘WE’ is a difficult thing to describe, partly because many of ‘YOU’ the congregation are probably are part of ‘we’, who are people who live love and work and play in Camberwell. People who grew and are growing up here, people who moved here, who chose to lay down roots here. People who bring up their children here, go to school here, expect and hope to see Camberwell become a competent community for the benefit of everyone. People who either through birth, heritage or by choice live here to whom Camberwell is their downtrodden home. A home many of them already feel excluded from because there is so little in it which offers them anything of sustenance. People who used the bingo hall are bereft, they have nowhere to go, people who did not use the bingo hall were already bereft.
It is likely though that members of your congregation naturally fall into this ‘we’ whereas ‘we’ are not part of your congregation.
‘WE’ are the thousands who live and work in Camberwell and have NOWHERE where we can visit, meet, see and share expressions of our various cultural heritages. This ‘we’ is the Camberwell community that has no civic hall or shared congregational facility, nowhere to celebrate our diversity, the richness of our backgrounds, cultures and life experiences.
I don’t have a lot of time for the Bible, but let’s not forget it helped with the intro for the Iron Maiden classic, The Number of the Beast.
Let’s all be thankful for that. Praise be!
Gonna have to Youtube it right now. Great song.
Jesus Reigns and Yum Yum make a good team. Let us not forget that we also have the Gnostic Center here on Denmark Hill Road. No-one has ever opposed that, I don’t know why, they don’t know why, no-one knows why the Gnostic Center is here, is not opposed — the whole thing is a mystery!
That chief chap from the Odeon was on the Home Service this morning. He said that in the last 40 years, the number of cinemas has halved. That cinema bingo hall is a big place to run. Why have not the Odeon or other big boys taken on the big cinema? The chap talked about DVDs being available early in the cycle, all that.
The Church of the Latter Rain Outpouring Revival have been doing particularly well in Coplestone Road. Some people say this is to do with the iceberg the size of Luxembourg that has broken off and is interfering with the production of bottom water which will make winters in the north colder and wetter. But they would wouldn’t they?
Jesus rains on the vainglorious, whoever they are.
Well done Yum Yum and Jesus Reigns. It is great to have fresh voices here. There is more to life in Camberwell than discussing the merits of langoustines and croutons!
‘We’ all need to take ownership over this rare — no — this unique opportunity that is in front of all of us.
The people of Camberwell have been ‘consulted’ for decades about what is needed for their area while their local amenities, services, shopping facilities, social comforts and public environment has slowly fallen into decline, neglected eroded and eaten away as the result of changing political priorities, ignored by local authorities whose concerns are perennially focused deeper in their geographical spheres.
Camberwell NEEDS, truly desperately, a high quality mixed use multi cultural hub that can address many of the huge gaps there are in general provision and amenity for the local population.
A great amount of this could be achieved in this one building — and there is nowhere else like it anywhere nearby. The last opportunity anything like this was lost thirty years ago. This is the only opportunity the people of Camberwell will have for at least another thirty years.
‘WE’ and this is all ‘we’ s MUST get together and make a positive solution come out of this unique cultural opportunity which will benefit us ALL. Christian, other faith, and secular fellowships alike.
SE5 Forum is the right vehicle for substantial local change and the place a competent solution can be worked through.
Robert said:
I have never heard this kind of language or suggestion on this forum, and if it did I would hope that it would quickly be deleted by those with responsibility for moderation. Incidentally, have you any idea what national or ethnic background the people who are posting here are from? Finally, if this Church has been part of the community for 21 years, yet the community is still plagued with problems of poverty and violence, perhaps it’s time to try something different.
A church is part of a community. I am very sure the people of camberwell will enjoy the new development if only you will allow it. It is for the people.
Trust me, that the development will increase employment in this area and also it will be a family home where we all have fun together in His presence. Christianity is FUN and I bet it,you will enjoy it.
PEACE
Here’s a lovely comment that someone called Gerry Ewan just left on Facebook
@James J. Sounds like Robert is just a wind-up merchant aka ‘troll’. Ignore it.
Your other point is interesting. My guess, and it is only a guess, would be that the fine people who have taken the time to post here over the years are generally white and British.
Though sg is Aussie, right? And Dagmar may be Danish?
I would add that many posters here are ‘educated’ and there are some ‘middle class’ aspirationals here for sure, and I stand with them. Age is more difficult to nail down. I thought there’d be some younger faces in the photo above.
White and ‘middle class’ makes the blog posters here just another minority community in this area.
I’d add too that I tick a box ‘Other’ or ‘Mixed’.
im an ex-yugoslav
I was brought up in Nigeria on a Christian missionary school compound. I’m white, middle class, atheist humanist in receipt of working family tax credits with nowhere to go.
@Robert. Nice point, well made. FWIW my white middle class leanings mean I have more affinity with those that see the need for a mixed use venue of benefit to the whole community. I applaud those making an effort to try to influence that.
Actually — not @Robert at all. I meant James J’s retort. Apologies.
Gerry Ewan?
That’s my mum that is!!
i dont understand what the problem is with you guys expecially @roberts talking about religious war it is a pitty you dont know what you wish for your self when religious war will start i dont even percive you surviving it so stop talkin about that you say white suprimacy where are the whites that africans and asians are taking over your so called home office. let the church be, if you need the building desperately then buy it from the church they will sell it to you if your offer is good enough but idont think so even your fourth and fifth generation will not make up half of the money.
@silkyfunz — I think you misunderstood Robert’s post. Robert is pro the purchase by the Church and was accusing those who want a mixed-use cultural venue of engaging in a religious war. I absolutely refute this. There are no posts talking about ‘religious war’ by people campaigning for a venue that can be used by the whole community including church-goers. If you have a problem with that kind of language Robert used, you need to address this to Robert and no one else.
pls james j. this are the exact words of roberts.
This is becoming a religious war and you know this bloody blacks from Africa. they are nuiseance and THEY must BE STOPPED BY ALL MEANS.……UP WHITE SUPREMACY!!!!!!!!!!
so dont think i got him wrong i got him perfectly right. what is the meaning of
“This is becoming a religious war and you know this bloody blacks from Africa. they are nuiseance and THEY must BE STOPPED BY ALL MEANS.……UP WHITE SUPREMACY!!!!!!!!!!”
pls explain it to me expecially “this bloody blacks from Africa. they are nuiseance and THEY must BE STOPPED BY ALL MEANS.……UP WHITE SUPREMACY!!!!!!!!!!”
it then we are also talkin about racism in this modern world. he is a racist, he is lucky i dont know him he would exlained to the security agency what he means by that.
I think if you read his words in context he is parodying the people he disagrees with. You will note his post begins
Other people reading these posts will be able to make their own minds up who has interpreted Robert correctly. Either way, It’s great if both those for the Church and for the mixed-use community venue are all able to reject ideas like this.
Yes, let’s tread carefully and not say things we’ll regret later, remember and grimace at. I am reminded of that poem by Mervyn Morris:
WALK GOOD
Teck time
walk good
Yu buck yu foot
an memory ketch yu
like a springe
The story on the front page of the South London Press lays it all out clearly. It’s good people can have a say. It’s interesting to see where the money is these days — not with the elderly bingo players of Camberwell, that’s for sure.
Was that Robert’s first post on here? Interesting choice of words if so…
if Robert wants to start a racist war he should say it straight and i will give it to him if incase he dose not know he should go and make finding he is a white pig as for you James trying to defend what is wrong what does this words mean to you
“This is becoming a religious war and you know this bloody blacks from Africa. they are nuiseance”
calling black africans “nuisance”
if you are called a nuisance what will be your reaction?
think about it!!!!
@Copeywolf what can you say about these words
“This is becoming a religious war and you know this bloody blacks from Africa. they are nuiseance”
in the true human spirit pls give me an honest reply.
@ Phil G, yes sg = Aussie.
An Aussie who has (hopefully) sold her house and is most likely leaving Camberwell in early July.
But I will still visit this blog from sunny Queensland or wherever we choose to settle as it is a true sign of what’s *really* going on in Camberwell.
I will be very sad to leave Camberwell, with all its quirkiness, colour and drama. Living life on the edge, that’s Camberwell to me.
Dodging potholes, crumbling footpaths, drunks and nutters (religious and otherwise) — or abusing them, depending on my mood, being guarded when walking down darkened streets at night, sitting on broken chairs in local pubs.
But you know, I wouldn’t have it any other way. Its quirky, urban and “real”. I work in a totally different area of London — where things are pristine, pavements smooth, pubs posh — and its bloody boring!!
Speaking as fifth generation of the local Parishes of of St George the Martyr, St Mary Magdalen and St Olaves I vote cinema.
Do Churches pay tax?
This is the last response I will make to Silkyfunz, as I don’t think it is a constructive debate. It is, however, important to me that I am not misunderstood. In what way can the following be construed as defending Robert’s words?
James said:
Slikyfunz — I suspect that what Copeywolf is implying is that, since Robert is using such language in his first posting then he is either a fake and a troll, or he is someone who does have those views, but who shouldn’t be listened to.
Therefore Copeywolf from his comment is not supporting Robert’s nonsense. I don’t think many people here do.
It’s nice to hear your views Slikyfunz. But do we have to spell everything out to you every time or are you just going to get offended anyway?
A troll is someone who posts rubbish on the internet to create an argument.
Sadly, it seems that Robert has had his desired effect on you. Or are you having a laugh too?
SG you may be leaving this failed country but keep an eye on how this thing plays out.
Swap ‘knackered bingo hall’ for ‘Gold Coast casino’. And swap ‘Nigerian church’ for ‘Indonesian mosque’ and history may repeat itself! Cheers!
phil G i am havin a laugh.
thanks a lot.
i think we should just let the church be, Bingo hall has been closed for a long time business is booming for them so they decided to sell the building and the lucky buyers are the church. come to think of it who ready to pay an amount close to £7million for that place?
the govt is not ready to use the place so let the church use it. at least they will help take off some holigans from the streets. @James it’s okay i got ur point just trying to tease you a little bro. lol
I have been trying to bite my tongue (not easy for me) but Robert, whoever you are, could you please refrain from making silly comments like that?
If you were making a joke, it was in very poor taste and not well thought out. If you were serious, I have no interest in speaking to you.
To everyone on this forum. Cheap shots will not help foster communities.
As I have said before, I am not interested in the RCCG using the building on thier own but I am interested in getting the building used by everyone in the community and not simply one section of it.
@slikyfunz — thanks for your witty contribution.
The bingo hall has been closed for all of four and a half days, which is not my idea of a long time.
Where did you hear the figure of £7 million by the way? That would be very useful to know.
@ Phil, oh but England’s not a failed country, just one going through a tricky patch at the moment
Yes, I’m going where they have cinemas aplenty, bingo halls few
Churches here and there, but as for Tigers.…
oh, someone say Tiger, how was it then last night?? Worth popping in tonight to check it out, do we think??
sorry cant tell you were i got the figure from.
for your information another bingo hall is closing down.
find out about that before we loose it to redeem church again cuase they are good in aquiring properties.
That’s interesting.
Yeah, good one silkyfunz. Ho ho ho. Choice.
Monkeycat which one are you in the pic?
To the dude in the tinted glasses on the pic. I recognise you man, I’m sure I’ve seen you somewhere. Next time I’ll say hi.
I was behind the camera. Typical photographer!
The dude in the tinted glasses is a neighbour of mine. Makes the best ice cream this side of Italy! I say that as I babysit his kid and eat his ice cream!
Just had very supportive email replies from Harriet Harman, John Friary, and Ian Wingfield.
Well done to those responsible for getting this on the front page of the SLP. It’s a crying shame that for many of the bingo regulars it was their only social outing of the week.
In respect of the bingo hall — formerly a cinema — being purchased by a church I am reminded of my grandparents who moved to Herne Hill in the 1930’s. They came from another country, speaking another language (though they could speak English) and were both religious. But there was no question of getting together with others to buy or rent somewhere to worship locally; they found their place of worship in central London.
I am from Spanish/Portuguese background…have lived in Southwark and Lambeth for over 30 years…
I think I’m entitled to have an opinion…Because I’ve seen more mistakes than I have the time to list here regarding poor town planning and long term vision…
I am a little uncomfortable with some of the posts on this board…I don’t like censorship but isn’t there a moderator to remove some of the more inflamatory posts?
Thanks,
Victor
Mumu
You are right the buses are thanks lots of poeple complaining to Val Shawcross and our local councillors Jim Dickson and Kirsty McHugh (Labour Herne Hill ward that covers LBJ). What they have done is to listen and do something about it which is great for us up this end of Camberwell.
So a big thanks to those that got it sorted out
And yes I have used the bus it is free as it should be. Although I do feel like I am in “one flew over the cuckoo nest” sat on the white bus on the way to the asylum.
I wonder if RCCG are willing to open there arms to all of us in same sex relationships. Or are they an exclusive heterosexual church?
Tiger purring into business tonight.
A great addition to Camberwell. When it’s finished they will be mobbed I think. Meantime it’s nice to sample the post war era decor and ambience…
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdodds/sets/72157623515712818/
Note the wallpaper with the farm workers mowing grass and stuff. Boy does that take me back. And the nets.
@ Gnomee — I’m afraid the RCCG are not very gay friendly:
New York Times profile of RCCG
Interview on Evangelicals Now
This is useful to know for any debates about the inclusiveness of a church as opposed to a secular community organisation.
Community health workers and NHS staff (of whom there are many in the area) may not agree with the RCCG’s views on divine healing:
But it’s not all bad news. Their views on marriage are quite forward thinking:
@Gnome — I wrote a reply to your question about the RCCG and same sex relationships, but there were a few weblinks in it, so it’s awaiting moderation. The short answer is no, they consider homosexuality a sin. It’s a very important point. How can any organisation claim to be open to the community and serving the community if it stigmatises a significant part of that community?
@eusebiovic (and everyone else) — My policy is never to remove comments, no matter how distasteful or inflammatory they may be; this is because I don’t think it’s my place to be an arbiter of people’s opinions.
I would make an exception for anything that’s libellous, unprovable, or discloses personal information about a third party; but never because someone has an opinion that I don’t like.
I’ve been accused of censoring comments in the past, but I never have. Anytime a comment seems to disappear it’s very probably a software matter.
Peter
Peter
That’s absolutely fine — I agree…
I was merely worried that it might all lead to something libellous…or even more unpleasant which we don’t want to see!
Oh, everyone knows that the church preaches against homosexuality but that the pastor keeps a boy. Many of the ladies are very impressed by him, too, in his bow tie and metallic suit, it’s all normal, it’s just ignored and understood or whatever, people are human after all.
Burgess Park
Camberwell Leisure Centre
Camberwell Cinema Hub
Will be the “Holy Trinity” that will ensure Camberwell’s progressive future for a good few years…
And the Overground also arriving in 2 years time…As Hannibal Smith from the A Team w…ould have said
“I love it when a plan comes together!”
I believe in this great village — lets make it work…
I’m in Tadim’s Cafe…
“Love All & Serve All” is the tag line on their blackboard menu. Seems like everyone’s welcome.
My favourite cafe in Camberwell.
We have posted our take on the bingo/cinema campaign on the Gay Camberwell blog. For your interest, it’s at: http://www.gaycamberwell.com/gc-blog.html
@ Gay Camberwell
That’s an excellent review of the situation. You should consider sending it as a ‘press release’ to the the South London Press and Southwark News.
To quote with that interview with RCCG on Evangelicals Now,
The placing of homosexuality side-by-side with murder is chilling even if it is becoming an unfortunate cliché of some Evangelicals.
what is your gripe guys? is it against the bible or the use of the bingo hall for the community at large?. looks like we are mixing things up here.
@Gay Camberwell
I agree with James J this is a well considered blog. I live in Lambeth so my local councillors are not able to affect Southwark decisions. You should send it to the Southwark ones considering it is election year they may support the campaign.
@GayCamberwell
Thanks for sharing that — it’s a well thought out and positive piece. Echo the comments above, adding that it would be good to send your piece not only to existing councillors but also to those standing for election.
Camberwell has no civic heart or focus and it is desperately needed. This building uniquely offers a chance to fill a huge gap that has been gnawing away at the fabric of the community for far too long.
The sale of this huge site and potentially iconic landmark building went through completely behind closed doors and there was no chance for all the people who live and work in Camberwell to know or do anything about it.
There have been debates and discussions about this sort of building being desperately needed for use by the whole community for decades and the fact that no such building has ever been available has been a serious brake on local development and regeneration of the whole of the SE5 area.
Camberwell has an unusual concentration of people from the creative industries at all levels, from people studying to practitioners to senior administrators and leaders in all fields imaginable. There is a potentially huge audience locally for a multi use civic centre which could reflect the richness and complexities of Camberwell’s particularly exciting and extraordinary range of ethnic, racial, social and gender backgrounds.
There is NOWHERE remotely of this kind here although some bars do try to offer such range they are too small to accommodate the range and scale of activities that could be run from a large venue like the bingo hall — a place designed for mass entertainment.
Many churches do much good work with communities all over the world there is no doubt. But it can be argued that Camberwell already has an embarrassment of riches when it comes to the evangelical church movement — and yet another church can surely only be duplicating the work that many existing congregations are doing in the area. I know my door gets knocked on often enough and leaflets imploring me to hear the word of the Lord drop onto the door mat every week. Besides, any church, by nature, is exclusive to its congregation and the limited range of people who are attracted to its particular take on whatever particular branch of which ever faith it’s promoting.
An intelligently designed, operated and well managed multi use secular centre for the celebration of all the cultures, arts and heritage of the many peoples who live alongside each other in this area would touch and improve far more people’s lives than any church ever could.
With hindsight I’m not sure how gaps can gnaw at fabrics but I hope you know what I’m getting at…
It is sad to know that a tiny fraction of camberwell tends to show their love for the bingo hall now that it’s already sold and deal sealed. When you guys make mention of putting your case before your politicians, what do you then expect? Don’t you know that you all(voters) are prostitutes to the politicians? The politicians in office and the ones standing in election already know how to manage you guys because you, even you, don’t help the situation nor offer solutions to their ever growing problems of maintaining law, order and economy. If we scrutinise you all,
1, some of you have faultered in paying your council tax, rent and the council has to chase you up.
2, majority are lazy therefore depend on the council for benefits and giro. You may call it ‘entitlement’ but in the real sense, you are liabilities because most hardworking citizens do without it ok.
3, If the defenders of the bingo hall are asked in what ways they have contributed to the growth & sustenance of this facility, i bet if they will be able to raise their heads and provide an answer.
4, Everyone of you don’t really care about the bingo hall talkless of the community, probably the reason you were considered irrelevant in the process of sale of the property.
5, There were bidders in the run up to sale, so the highest bidder came out shinning…Glory be to Almighty God.
Forget about this because it’s a done deal. You only need to look elsewhere before another bingo hall is off the street.
For your information, have you all heard about the sale of Gatwick Airport? It was bought by a NIGERIAN !
Thanx 4 ur time.
Several things ‘Jesus Reigns’.
1) Many people will find your insensitive thoughtless comments deeply offensive although perhaps, just perhaps, you do not mean them to be.
2) You show how little you know of Camberwell and the many thousands of marvellous people, of dozens of different types of background, to whom Camberwell is their beloved home.
3) If, as it appears, your comments are representative of the type of person who constitute the congregation of this wealthy evangelical church which ostensibly promotes ‘Christian values’ it seems clear that your values are limited, mean spirited, insular and that you relish your exclusiveness and superiority over other people.
4) As you are confident enough in your arrogance to take Jesus’ name in vain for your own postings doubtless you will understand clearly just how your gloating words actions will be treated come your Judgement Day.
5) If your display is in any way representative of the type of ‘evangelism’ promoted by your church’s Big Daddy Pastor it only reinforces my satisfaction of having relinquished my church’s interpretation of the way life should be led at the age of ten and instead embarked on a life guided by a humanitarian compassion, careful consideration of others, humility and a deep sense of civic duty toward the majority. It used to be called having ‘Christian Values’ but people with views like yours tarnish the majority’s vision of faith and churches of all description and leaning.
A secular approach to life is far less damning of and damaging to others than yours as evidenced by your missives here
HA. ‘God came out shinning’ Not with you he didn’t mate, he got a brass farthing.
People who actually care about Camberwell are meeting tonight at 7pm to talk about the bingo hall. If you are local and understand the area and the needs and wants of the people who live love and work here, why not come and meet us? And tell us why we should welcome you with open arms into our community.
I just tried emailing Pastor Adeboye this message:
‘Dear RCCG and Pastor Adeboye,
You will be interested to know that ‘Jesus Reigns’ is posting inappropriate un-Christian comments on Camberwell’s local blog. I hope this person’s stance and evident human values are not representative of your general congregation’s position.
This link is to one comment from this sadly misguided person: http://www.camberwellonline.co.uk/2010/02/a-community-cinema-for-camberwell/#comment-126869
I was brought up on a Methodist missionary compound in Shagamu and this saddens me greatly.
With best wishes
J Mark Dodds’
mark@suanddoves.co.uk
The anti spam human interface filter thingummyjig on the pastor’s website does not appear to let me send a message. Maybe he doesn’t want to know; being one of the fifty most powerful people on planet earth he probably doesn’t have time to deal with email.
@ Mark Dodds, what would you prefer the buidling is used for? I will suggest you take a look at the mission, vision snd intention of the church of God and you will see that in summary, all it preaches and still preaching is love.I am sure these evangelical church would welcome you anytime you want to visit, am sure they will also welcome and take on board any good ideas that will be positively beneficial to all and they are open to suggestions, just because it is a church does not mean it will only cater for pples sipiritual needs, it does cater for pples physical needs to. Why not get to know them, chatt and have an insight of what they are about, rather than stay outside and assume. Go in and see things for yourself and am certain you will come out satisfied. God bless you.
Please do not feed the trolls.
liar liar! how can you be brought up in a missionary compound and with no bearing to your upbringing? i don’t believe you.
forget the church getting this place. please allow the Osama Bin Ladens to take the place. from the way you have been going it seems you have a beef on RCCG. my info says House of Praise got the place in the first place and you are using your silly mouth to run Pastor Adeboye. if you have no respect and honour for your elders we do. the problem with you is that you think you are a voice but you are a failure. we are checking you out
Deutsche Bank has a legal charge over the freehold title of the bingo hall. just checked land registry. we can still stop this church. let us write to this bank and boycot their business. anyone for this idea?
At the risk of feeding Trolls i hope everyone on this board understands that this campaign is not anti churcg or anti one group of people in Camberwell it’s about argueing a large and historic building (please remember whoever uses this Camberwell bingo hall is a listed building and deserves to be treated properly and respectfully whatever use it is put to)in this area ahould be put to use as soemthign that beenfits the whole community not fracturing it further.
I appreciate and respect people right to belive and worship but i do not think that gives you a right to impose you views on other people. There are amny evangelical churchs in Camberwell already including one a few minutes walk away from gala bingo on Camberwell Station Road. Camberwell doesn’t need more churhces it needs community facilities for everyone regardless of their background, religion or beliefs — that is what we are campaigning for.
Fianlly whilst i apprecaite evangelical Christians beleifs please remember not everyone beleives what you beleives and i as an atheist i am becomming increasingly unhappy in Camberwell with beign harrassed in the street, in shops, on buses and my own home by peopel intent on savign my soul — i appreciate you right to believe but do not assume i want to know about it.
On a nice note i would urge everyoen to get down to the mediatheque at the BFI in Waterloo where they are running a free season of South London fils — i saw a wonderful 50’s one yesterday all about Camberwell Metropolitan Borough council — a timly and relvant reminder that the community and it’s services should be for everyone.
Yes don’t forget the fruit:
“just because it is a church does not mean it will only cater for [a]pples[‘] sipiritual needs, it does cater for [a]pples[‘] physical needs to[o]”
Did I misunderstand? I’m not very good with internet slang…
it’s the jesus gym obvsly
@ Robert Checking, or threatening?
It is he house of God and everybody is welcome, so long as you are not coming to fight, destroy and distrupt. I think it is only fair to give it a chance and see. but i assure everyone that if God is interested in something or overseeing something no one, not even the whole world can stop it.good suggestions, ideas of our everyone both young and old, even the elderly can benefit. in my former church back in africa,(i.e RCCG) we have a 2 sundays in the month called “CAN DAY” on these days we cook food of all sorts, buy loads of food items, clothings etc and take to people in need, we host them in a party for all one day a month. where every one of all ages are invited to come and eat, play and sll sortd of games and sports.. people do have loads of fun.Some volunteers go to old peoples home/orphange to help them out.. wash, play,clean and cook for them. and am am sure this is some of the mumerous plans the this building will be used for not just for sunday service. your concerns will be taken on board if you are open to communication and dialogue. you can work together to help the community grow. your ideas and suggestions are needed, all just need do is just come over and talk and am certain thing will work out fine yes the church cannot do everything themselves, but it akes team work, you share what you know, they share theirs and work things out, so long as the intention is for the benefit if everyone invloved. please do not let us fight and hate, God loves everyone irrespective of what and who you are, but He hates the bad things we do and if we can just admit that we are wrong and ask Him to forgive us, surely He will if we are truly sorry. He made all of us to worship HIm only and please Him. all He wants is a relationship, He just wants us to love one another and live in peace. that is the message
Liliana, Who is Jesus to you? Do you know HIm? If you dont know Him, then it is better you dont call His name in vain or joke with it, please let us face the building and what it should be used for.
Thank you
south london press article is now online http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/tn/news.cfm?id=7277&headline=Uproar%20as%20church%20buys%20Camberwell%20bingo%20hall
I turned my back on Jesus a long time ago. I don’t think he noticed. My new friends Stella Artois and Jim Beam make a lot more sense.
Folks just ignore these posts above. They may be real, or they may be that comedy genius Slikyfunz or that Socialist Worker tit we had on here a few months back. There’s no way of knowing.
Anyway, I see some of the politicians have joined in and that’s great. I see Cllr Wingfield has chipped in already. So, has his ward member Cllr Sandra Rhule replied yet? I have to know. I’m certain she hasn’t. She never does.
Speaking of heritage buildings open to the wider community, I went to The Tiger.
Sorry to say it after the long wait, but we were quite unmoved. Lots of little wooden chairs and tables in that threadbare schoolroom style that seems to be everywhere.
Quirky wallpaper and a few other touches but it was all a bit yeah, so what. The Buckle did at least offer something unique in the SE5 pub mix.
OK so it’s only half finished, I know, but there’s nothing special about it. Not yet anyway.
If it eases some of the Hermits traffic then that’ll be a good thing.
There were a few Buckle faithful inside the Tiger, looking bewildered and probably wondering what the hell happened.
One time I went to the Buckle there was a ‘character’ in her late 40s / early 50s, drunk, dressed in a non church like manner and stood outside the gents suggestively catching the eye of every bloke who went in.
That’s not going to happen at The Tiger. Sigh…
Cllr Sandra Rhule didn’t reply to me, but nor did quite a few others. I understand that a lot of councillors are standing down at the election and they probably can’t be bothered with anything (except claiming expenses) in the remaining couple of months.
Oh, I have read and scanned through with great interest. What if the church has over a 1000 people in the congregation, wouldn’t they contributing to the community? They would have to use the Camberwell shops, Macdonald’s and all other ammenities in the area. I think maybe there should be a application to use some of THEIR facilities,( at a reduced rate perhaps) now they have BOUGHT the place.
By the way,be honest, if it were a cinema, would you HONESTLY go there after 7pm? Honestly i wouldn’t.
@Phil,hope you don’t mind me saying, sad to read that you turned your back on the big JC, you know what, He’s still into YOU.
Dear Rachael,
1000 people in a population of about 40,000 in Camberwell. That’s not very much is it? That’s 0.025% of the total local population. That ‘s very little in fact.
Could you guarantee that they would use the local facilities? In that case why the need for a car park?
Why wouldn’t I go there after 7pm? I don’t understand what you are trying to say. Do you think that Camberwell is so dangerous that it is unsafe to walk on the streets after dark? I can assure you that it isn’t if that is what you are saying. In fact, I did go there at 8pm last on the last night of the bingo. As did a lot of other people.
I think a lot of people will go to a cinema after 7pm — i don’t even get back from work till 7 — 8pm most nights!
Also i think the comments about believing or not believing in God or Jesus aren’t helpful and don’t add anything to the debate. This debate is not pro or anti religion it’s about the fact a community use building should remain open to everyone in the community not just a small section of that community. Also i don’t understand why it’s so hard for some people on this board to understadn god and Jesus is just a belief thing — those of us who don;t beleive don’t feel an absence of this in our lives cos it’s just not important to us — you might as well feel sorry for us cos we don’t believe in the tooth fairy or pixies for all the difference it makes.
Thanks for the comment Monkeycat.
Are you saying that although the supposed congregation is 0.025% in compartison to the local current total, it would not be valued? Any increase in business income is necessary! I can’t guarantee that they will use the local facilites, they same way you can not guarantee the whole of the local total of 40,000 does.
My last comment regards to going there after 7pm, was in relation to viewing film after 7pm and the commute back home. But I guess, when you are not familiar with a environment and all that…and I lived in Peckham for 10 years!
I think I usually go to the cinema, concerts and theatre after 7pm. Camberwell is not nearly as dangerous as people seem to think. I live next to Burgess Park and my wife and I will often walk through the park from Camberwell Road to Wells Way after dark.
People are much more likely to travel by foot, bike or public transport to the cinema or theatre than they are to Church. I have no evidence for this beyong my own observations of the behaviour of Church goers wearing their Sunday-best. There are serious issues with street parking near Churches on Sundays.
A major problem for local businesses in Camberwell is that people leave the area to spend their money. A culture and leisure resource like we are suggesting is certainly a good thing in its own right, but it would also help keep people in the area in the evenings and at the weekend. This would be a major boast to the local economy, and help to support existing businesses while encouraging a variety of new ones to start. The benefits would multiply as these would attract new investment, jobs and pride to the area.
I don’t believe a new Church would do any of these things. After all, by my count, there are at least 54 sites used primarily as places of worship within one mile of the centre of Camberwell Green (I can provide the list if required but it is still being updated). If places of worship really were able to transform the local area, they would already have done so.
It’s time for something new.
Will the master signwriter of Noodel City be tendering for business at our new church? Or perhaps Mr Tourette?
If not, here are some excellent tips:
http://badgas.co.uk/churches/
I’ve been reading this thread with interest. How would people have felt if the old bingo hall had been bought by the catholic church or C of E? A lot easier, I believe, as these denominations are familiar and easier to understand from “our” cultural stand point. Would the campaign have become so heated, and have gathered as much momentum if the hall had been bought by the above? I doubt it. (My view is that the bingo hall would have benefited the local community the most if it had stayed a bingo hall!).
brian.
54 churches (and counting) within 1 mile of Camberwell Green!
I think we can safely come to the conclusion that Camberwell is more than over-subscribed in this respect…It is also a fact and not an opinion that the physical appearance of the Camberwell landscape hasn’t improved in the slightest…It has got worse despite all the different churches and their different doctrines and faiths professing to provide their respective congregations with the powers to achieve this goal. I am not an anti-religion person — I would love to believe that it really can make a difference on a significant scale…but up until now, there is no significant evidence to me that it has (Particularly in a wonderfully diverse community like Camberwell which is crying out for a cultural/community facility that evrybody who lives here can be proud about).
Especially for an inner-city community in a city like London which has up to 12 Million people living,working,studying,commuting in and out of on a daily basis.
We need to evolve…in a good way
This is a list of Places of Worship within one mile of the centre of Camberwell Green.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AeT_ojhi_hexZGYyOXB0ZHNfMTBnZjRqZjhmeA&hl=en
This is a work in progress so there are likely to be places missing and it may contain mistakes.
The list does not include other types of venue which are used occassionally as places of worship, such as community halls or tenants halls. The list does not include theological colleges of which I am aware of two in the area.
I assume yes, but are the Camberwell Society fully briefed and acting on this issue? I notice they have an executive meeting on Thursday. Looking on their website, I see that their constitution is: to stimulate public interest in Camberwell, to promote high standards of planning and architecture in Camberwell, and to secure the preservation, protection, development and improvement of features of historic or public interest in Camberwell.
Follow this link -
http://rccg.org/about;our_fundamental_belief/index.rccg — and you’ll find Pastor Adeboye outling the RCCG’s fundamental beliefs, one of which precludes cinema attendance.
Quote: “WORLDLINESS FORBIDDEN The Bible teaches us to abstain from all appearance of evil.…. Therefore we must not see our Church members in dancing halls, or cinema halls, reveling, for such things are works of the flesh”
Bingo seems to be OK, as does a pint in the Doves afterwards.
I have spoken to a committee member, who said she will raise it at their next committee meeing, which is this Thursday 4th March. It is probably worth someone (Monkeycat?) contacting the secretary directly. The only means of contact I have is here: http://www.camberwellsociety.org.uk/contact.php
So is there to be a meeting? I may be able to make this one.
Regarding using the cinema / space after 7pm — surely the whole point is that it’s for the local community, so a commute can’t be longer than 10 or 15 mins on the bus?
I personally would be a regular attendee both at the cinema, and at whatever else is on.
@ Kate W.
My objection is that Gala Bingo sold it without wider public consultation. Possibly a weak argument I know as it is a private sale. However, I would have the same objections if the building had been sold to ANY religious group, since even a religious group with the most liberal tendencies is by its nature exclusive. Can you imagine a Muslim feeling happy going into a Church of England building?
@ Rachael: No I cannot guarantee that 40,000 people use ALL the local facilities and shops all the time. But I can guarantee that 40,000 people use some of the facilities some of the time. And that includes those who use the church, who I am assuming are mostly local. (If they are not then that is a different issue).
My point is that the building is so large and important that it should be shared by all. 1000 people are not a significant representation of the community of Camberwell, let alone the areas surrounding it.
RE Camberwell society. On the case.
@peter i’ll tweet you
In addition to some of the previous posts…
I have never felt unsafe in Camberwell after 7pm…I regularly walk home from Camberwell Green and Brixton/ Kennington/Peckham/Oval and have never felt in the slightest bit intimidated or wary. Of course there are isolated instances which can/do happen and are extremely regretable (especially for the individuals involved) but generally I haven’t noticed it being any worse here than elsewhere in London.
Apologies if I am rehashing this, but has the Gala Bingo company being contacted with regards to the “lack of” public consultation? There would have been one of those public notices on a lamp post by the building (please correct me).Did they own the lease or the freehold of the property?
It seems unfair and a bit late for a backlash for the company which has just bought the place.
Personally, I think ‘lack of consultation’ is the wrong way to put it. I would have liked to have seen the sale publicised properly in the local area so that there was the opportunity for interested groups in Camberwell to come together and put forward a bid for the building.
The fact that none of the people involved with the current campaign were aware of the planned closure and sale of the bingo hall until just over a week ago is itself proof that the sale was not adequately publicised in Camberwell — the very area most affected.
to add my points to others i would also not be happy if it was any place of worship of any denomination that had this building. As it is about keeping a building in communiy use that camberwell so desperately needs — i woudl vote to turn it into an arts centre with meeting space and maybe a performance space that could be hired by local groups and bands — there could even be commercial space for local artists to sell their stuff — like the one in East Dulwich.
This is a genuine questioncos as a detirminely non religious person i don’t understand. Is the Church that wants to set up in the bingo hall different from other christian churches that are in the area — is it like the difference between C of E and catholic? Or is there a greater difference between the types of evengelical church that means they can’t form one premises together? This is a genuine question as i see lots of different types of Christian places of worship in the one mile or so from elephant and castle to my house and i genuinely don’t understand the difference between them — to my mind god is god surely?
Shagamu:
http://bit.ly/cMVr87
http://bit.ly/bZATzC
http://bit.ly/aqeLPO
http://bit.ly/bSjTO4
@james j; @mark dodds;
If you guys are of informed minds then you don’t have to stand far off and criticize what is happening at the other end. All you need do is to get closer and inquire what this is all about. To see that you show so much love for a building(bingo hall) gets me to have a rethink on how some people reason. Oh, I almost forgot you claim it’s about cultural heritage & diversity but your case has no merit. Have you guys forgotten that culture is about the people and not a building? If you guys have to fight for a building simply because it serves as a symbol of your cultural heritage, then the people have lost cultural identity(heritage) hence, have to fight for what symbolises same. A people can lose everything but not identity! It is sad that you guys have come here to expose your mind-set…very sad indeed.
@phil G;
Jesus Christ still loves you because He came to die for your sins that you may not perish but have everlasting life. There is no greater love than this for a friend to lay down his life for the other.
God bless y’all
I saw ‘The Passion of the Christ’ the other day. I thought Jesus came across as an extremely arrogant young man. All he had to do was admit that he was making it up and they wouldn’t have crucified him. Fany putting your Mum through all that?!
‘He’s not the Messiah he’s a very naughty boy.’
It has been very interesting to see all the views of local people and other parties on here and I am glad that the subject is being discussed.
I live on Camberwell Rd and over the years many ex-retail units have been converted into churches/places of worship. I do wonder why there is a need for so many and whether there is some sort of church turf war going on that I am not privy to…I can only reason that everything has a saturation point and eventually things will even out. In a recession, it is probable that a lot of people turn to the support of a church and to their faith.
One thing that has not been really expanded on is that fact that we did have such a facilities which are hugely under-used, the Synergy Centre did offer this community space and the Blue Elephant Theatre has not been mentioned. I think it would be very sad if after all of this enthusiasm, the money to start up and the ongoing interest and use of such a facilty would trail off as we have seen with what we already have and will be another great facility that no-one ever uses.
If this was to happen, it would look as if the true purpose was to stop a church that we cannot identify with rather than to do something positive in the long term.
FYI — I am agnostic and 50% West African (Ghana) and 50%Brit, spending first 10 yrs of my life there.
So, where is the money going to come from in a community already pressurised by poverty and who will honestly use this enough and not let the same happen as with synergy et al?
@mimim
You raise some important points.
The Synergy Centre is currently homeless. The Blue Elephant Theatre has an audience capacity of approximately 50 people. The Bingo Hall would be on a different scale, and while this certainly brings with it challenges regarding organisation and finance, it would be great if there were an opportunity for local people to demonstrate that it can be used for culture and leisure purposes.
I think you are quite right that previously there has been a lack of wide-spread community interest in this type of venture, but that is in part about visibility. Neither the Synergy Centre nor the Blue Elephant Theatre could be classed as major venues and neither are able to attract the audiances that would allow them to combine commercial success with cultural value. The bingo hall is of a size and location that would make this possible.
Hopefully, the bingo hall will be a catalyst that can bring together the many artists in Camberwell and also appeal to the mainstream population with an interest in the arts from film to music to theatre.
Of course, no one should take this on faith; we’ll leave that to the RCCG! It is up to those campaigning for the multi-purpose cultural hub to demonstrate that it has a viable business model. However, I think that if the RCCG are going to request planning permission to convert the building to a place of worship, then they also need to argue convincingly that the site is not viable as as a cultural or leisure venue. The closure of the bingo hall should be seen as a consequence of the rise on online bingo, not as evidence that this site cannot support any alternative business model for a cultural venue that would bring great benefits to all the residents of Camberwell.
mimim
We will set up a charitable community trust fund…and attempt a simular model to The Albany in Deptford…which is a superb example of a multi-fuction arts and community centre which everybody in that area can use…as well as from afar
@Alan Dale,
You have to understand that Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world and must remind you that we christians are peace-loving people. Had it been that you passed such blasphemy to the holy prophet of islam, you should know and feel the gravity of your silly comments about our Lord Jesus Christ who came, not for the righteous, but for the sinners in order to reconcile mankind back to Almight God. I sincerely have to inform you of implications of your action as we christians DO NOT fight for our God because all battle belongs to Him(He fights for us). So watch it ok and don’t start what you can’t finish!
@mimim; @ James j;
you both have raised important points and I appreciate that but you have to understand that if a business is doing fine, there wouldn’t be the need for sale of same. Mimim has said it all but James’ point can only be of merit if the bingo hall never had reasons or concerns about the future of the same(bingo hall). However, it is a private sale and the due process was actually taken into account, so let’s not make any noise like the clanging cymbal ok.
thanks
At times like this I turn to the Bible.
Acts ix. 5. ‘It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks’.
@ Jesus Reigns
Gala-Coral are a gambling and betting business. The fact that they weren’t making enough money at their Camberwell Bingo Hall to encourage them to keep the site does not mean that other Assembly & Leisure businesses couldn’t succeed in that location. Gala-Coral would not be interested in diversifying into the type of mulit-use arts venue that we are suggesting; that’s not the business they know.
It is also worth pointing out that the price of the site was driven up by the RCCG speculating on the possibility of getting planning permission for a change of use. If this planning permission is rejected, the value of the site will fall making alternative business models even more realistic. This, however, would still depend on the RCCG being willing to sell the site rather than just leaving in to decay as is happening in Walthamstow.
“And looking very relaxed, Adolf Hitler on vibes. Nice!”
@ Jesus Reigns,
I am sure that it has been said before that the issue many people have is that a building which is purpose built as an entertainment and which is ideal as an arts and community venue has been sold to a private group. Religion for me has nothing to do with it. I am not anti religion, but I am very much pro community and this Church (or any religion) will exclude many more than it includes. However, a community centre will include many.
I think that at heart all of us want to involve the community as much as possible. It is simply a question of how WE (i.e. you and me and everyone we know) together do this.
I’ve just been reading the comments section of the South London Press article on the church buying the hall as I’m sure a few others on here have too: http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/tn/news.cfm?id=7277&showcomall=y
There are over 100 comments up there with my personal favourite being one from the big guy upstairs:
“Posted by : GOD, PARADISE | Wednesday 03/Mar/2010 | Report this comment
Behold, I, your God am verily vexed and disappointed. I, your God have read all the posts on here and even I, as an omnipotent deity, am astonished at the sheer stupidity and absence of reason in most of them. There are already 3 evangelical churches dedicated to Me in Camberwell and I, your God do hereby decree that those 3 are sufficient. I, your God therefore command thee NOT to create another church for it would pleaseth Me greater to see the building put to some other secular use. This is My command to thee My creation. And I, your God, do hereby warn thee that whosoever is involved in creating another church in Camberwell dedicated to Me against My wishes will know My wrath and vengence. For I, your God shall smite them down with horrible afflictions, embarrassing rashes and sores, painful tribulations and other assorted odious nastinesses. Because I, your God loves thee.”
I’m sure it will produce a few angry/amusing responses!
On a more serious note, I hope a few people are coming along to the Camberwell Community Council meeting tonight.
Matthew 6: 5–6.
@mimim, there is little analogy to be made between this site and any other broad based arts and cultural initiative that’s happened locally in the last forty years.
James points out above that Blue Elephant is a 50 seat venue. To expand on Synergy it is a private non profit enterprise that was housed in a temporary lease building which is not designed for public entertainment purposes. That is why they are not there now. Perhaps representatives from Blue Elephant and Synergy might be able to comment further.
There are no sites comparable to the bingo hall in terms of size, location accessibility and potential broad spread amenity this building could offer the whole community.
Four years ago the future of Camberwell Leisure Centre was in the balance and a LOT of scoping work was done around the type of service provision and civic facilities that are utterly lacking locally and desperately needed to help social cohesion.
The Gala building is a more flexible site than the Leisure Centre which could readily be redeveloped to accommodate and provide a wide range of activities for thousands of local people at all sorts of levels.
Handled creatively, intelligently and with care this site could exemplify and highlight the incredible existing range of talent, diversity, skill and cultural diversity Camberwell has which has absolutely zero opportunity to be expressed widely locally.
This building could put Camberwell properly on the London and UK map for the first time since it weas divvied up into different local authorities over forty years ago. An exciting moment which a church will not meet.
Thank you all for answering my many questions on the plans and reasons for the Bingo Hall being something th whole community can use. It makes your argument very compelling and I certainly do accept that the size and central location of the facility does not compare favourably with Blue Elephant & Synergy.
@eusebioviv, james J — your response fills me with confidence that this is NOT a kneejerk reaction to the sale of the building but would have liked the same opportunity as the church to have an input on the use of the building to benefit the whole community. I wish you luck and the support you clearly deserve.
I have not been entirely even handed with my questions and thought I should also give members of the RCCG and those who are all for the RCCG using the building as a place of worship to discuss their future vision too.
Would the building only be used for services or would it also be used for charitable works that would beneft the many underpriveleged and needy people in the community (and not just members of your church?). I think many people would be supportive of the church if we knew more about what you do in the community. It saddens me that there are so many churches with people inside them and on the streets there are many people in need of support (due to alcohol, mental illness, the elderly etc) and they seem to be ignored. Is it part of your belief to take time out and help them too, without judgement or obligation?
I do not think it is fair that some people have attacked your faith but I also would like to see how your faith is practised for the good of your brothers and sisters outside of the church (or am I missing the point?)
I do hope that whatever the result is at least does some good — I would just be happy with a book shop for starters
Tiger 6–8
Town Hall 7.
God Is My Portion
“The Lord is my portion,” Lamentations 3:24. This means a portion of land allocated to a villager, not the amount of grub doled out in one of our many value-for-money eateries. A portion may contain a tree for shade and a stream — a well featured plot. Hence the thought, my portion is a most assuredly divine one.
Now let us sing Hymn No. 69, “Legs Eleven, Truly Heaven”.
@Mark Dodds;
May I ask you a question sir because I read through your mind-piece and it even furnished my curiousity the more. You mentioned that “Handled creatively, intelligently and with care this site could exemplify and highlight the incredible existing range of talent, diversity, skill and cultural diversity Camberwell has which has absolutely zero opportunity to be expressed widely locally”.
This prompts me to ask the following question perhaps, you can satisfy my curiousity,
1, How long has the building(Gala Bingo) been there and what are the benefits enjoyed so far?
2, In what ways has the building integrated the community apart from serving as leisure and recreation centre, putting into account the crime rate, social life, health concerns and cultural diversity?
3, Could you please highlight(with practical proof) how this same building has been instrumental to the betterment of the common man on the street, even the less privileged?
I don’t want to ask too many questions but all I can say is that it’s a thing for one to make sense when it comes to matters such as this than to be full of words, i mean JUST WORDS TO DRAW EMPATHY.
God bless you Mark Dodds.
That’s good, Jesus, you box a good fight, apart from the occasional lapses where you leave yourself wide open. Keep the jab going! No big bombs! Don’t leave your chin open!
Matthew 6: 5–6 is just excellent. The version on the website of Walworth Methodist Church (Clubland) today is great, the NKJV translation, have a look. What do you think of the Methodists? They are hardcore, like the Salvation Army. They do the do and do not swank around.
What do you think of it, seriously, Matthew 6: 5–6?
The jolly African nature is great — just look at our own Church of England Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, he is brilliant, much better than that beardy fella, his boss. Like you say, empathy is better than logic.
But what people here do not want is a cult that preaches hatred. We like our gay people. We are them. We like Jewish people — sure, they have the best tunes and we’re jealous, but that’s life, eh?
People with awful, painful mental health problems — which are almost always have a physical cause — are cast out in Nigeria. Cast out! Nigerians think they are possessed!
The child sacrifice all over Africa is the shame of the continent.
What is wrong with Nigeria? Why are the Super Eagles so useless? Why is Nigeria so corrupt when it should lead the way, as the most powerful country, to a United States of Africa?
Why is the religious war in the north so bestial?
Sure, these are hard times in England and the aggressive church will almost certainly get its hands on that building and prey on African people by scaring the hell out of them.
“Some people die twice.”
That’s what they say isn’t it?
It is the joke of London that every building is being turned into an African church. But the African churches are opportunistic and run on American marketing principles, NOT on Christian belief.
Matthew 6: 5–6 is something they would want scapelled out of the Bible for ever. Have a look. It is not “good news” for the RCCG.
@Dagmar it was more like:
Town Hall 7–9.45
Tiger 10 — 1
@ Jesus Reigns:
Look forward to meeting your press officer next week.
Zidan’s goal against England was brilliant. How was the meeting?
feel free to agree/disagree http://www.peoplesrepublicofsouthwark.co.uk/news/camberwell-needs-a-cultural-centre
The meeting was a good start. The message was got across that we are not doing an anti church campaign but a pro-community space.
There will be updates, later today.
MK
Update on the meeting last night here:
http://camberwellcommunitycinema.webs.com/apps/blog/show/3041582-a-successful-camberwell-community-council
I was greatly encouraged by the turnout at the Camberwell Community Council meeting last night and felt that it was overall a positive experience — all things considered.
However I feel that this meeting really showed to the local councillors and politicians that residents of Camberwell have reached a turning point. That is we are no longer willing to be considered a poor afterthought in the plans and priorities of Southwark Council. We need a coherent, well thought out planning policy which currently doesn’t exist.
Trying to make amends in an ad-hoc manner is no longer good enough — we want change was the clear message of the overall meeting. Maybe the issue regarding the Bingo Hall will be the catalyst for this to happen. — I personally, certainly hope so.
I don’t think anybody who lives in Camberwell will dispute the fact that Elephant and Peckham deserve to have a lion’s share of the regeneration kitty. I grew up in Elephant (Brook Drive) and I went to school in Peckham (Hollydale Road) so I know both areas very well indeed. The upgrade of Burgess Park and the Camberwell Baths refurbishment are very welcome recent examples of regeneration in Camberwell for which we are all extremely enthusiatic and looking forward to the time when they come to fruition. However what Camberwell lacks is a focal point, a secular central community hub, an institution where everybody comes together to socialise and be proud of — currently this doesn’t exist. The Gala Bingo hall was the ideal opportunity to address this situation. It is the last purpose built cinema/theatre building left in Camberwell. After this there will be no more opportunities for us to change this situation — because there will be none left. A potential new build rarely offers the attractive shopfront that a historic building such as this will provide.
We have some excellent cultural groups (at least half a dozen) locally which have no home or are in temporary accomodation. We have the Camberwell Arts Festival which doesn’t have a central hub. Cooltan Arts needs a new home. Blue Elephant and Theatre Peckham — two excellent, highly regarded local theatre groups have limited space to show their wonderful works to a wider audience. We have no cinema where people can enjoy a film or documentary from all corners of the globe.
Brixton has the Fridge and Ritzy (two local institutions which in recent history were threatened with extinction) — They are still there as focal points of central Brixton giving the locals great pride and bringing people in from other parts of London. We don’t have this — That’s the point.
There is no centralised planning policy in regard to street management,transport and parking. We don’t have this — That’s the point.
This is an area where independent startup businesses (an important route out of poverty) are almost doomed to failiure or merely make ends meet, because of this — That’s the point.
Our existing bars,cafe,restaurants,shops and businesses would also like to see a better management plan to enable them make long term investment plans. (and create more employment) at the moment they can’t do this — That’s the point.
There is a very good reason why Camberwell and it’s environs only seems to attract Betting Shops,Christian Churches,Off Licenses etc — Because local town centre planning policy won’t allow anything else to thrive here — That’s the Point.
We don’t need vast fortunes of money thrown at Camberwell to make it work better — just some intelligent,shrewd investment, a genuine well thought out town management plan and the will of our residents,local councillors and politicians to make it work better. Then once all these factors are in place Camberwell will be able to breathe again and regenerate itself without requiring the investment which Elephant and Peckham demands and needs. Then we can reach our tentacles out to them as well as them getting closer to us. This is how genuine joined-up lateral thinking works!
We need a change…No more excuses…It can be achieved!
@Mark Dodds;
I still wait to get answers to my questions and they must be genuine answers please.
@eusebiovic;
I quite understand your position on this matter but there are stuffs I need to shed light on so you can consider and evaluate your so-called struggle.
Firstly, you need to ask yourself if the council never knew all the points you highlighted above, because stating those points here would only amount to repetition. You sound as if you are the immaculate eyes that see all these, where the council have turned blind eyes, ‘m sorry brother coz you don’t know better.
Secondly, you have to understand that when an individual or group of people show their frustration or grievances on an issue, in dealing with same, it’s not particularly about what the individual/group of people want but it’s simply about what the law provides in any matter so take a step backward ok.
You also need to find out if your aspirations conform with the set-out plans of the government(council) because they also have plans and targets. In all these, you have to support them so as to ensure good governance and to achieve their goals. I agree that the will of the people must prevail but they(government) know better and that’s why they lead us and make decisions for us.
Going about this protests and holding meetings here & there would not only be a waste of time by trying to resurrect a long lost battle but would also amount to ‘A HOUSE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF’.
Thanx 4 ur time.
humm intresting! i was at the meeting and it all comes down to one thing which @james and Tom are getting wrong here. the building is listed as grade 11 or D11 and from what the guy who explained the process said the building is listed for pulic use, for asembly (church), so from my understanding the new buys don’t need to change the grade but rather prove the heritage of the building is kept and if there will be any changes they have to be proper consltations with locals and submit a pre-application taking into consitration travel, noise ect. in my own opioion if this campgin focuses on the church rather than the heritage then they will have groungs to view it as anti church or evangelicals. you said you will me meeting with the respentative i was expecting now more focus on the issue of usage by the local community in collaboration with buys and how the comminuity will be benefiting from the building not sounding anit church because if i heard correctly grade 2 which the building is listed can be use for asembly.……food for taught
thanks
Jesus
Your questions make no sense. They’re based on the assumption Mark wants the bingo hall to remain. He’s talking about what the building could become, not what it has been.
You disagree and want another housey-housey of God.
Eusebiovic articulates a vision which is more attractive to some of us.
Simple.
I refer the honorable ladies and gentlemen of this blog entry to the proceeding blog:
http://www.camberwellonline.co.uk/2010/03/please-do-not-feed-the-trolls/
The principle of a building of potentially invaluable future use to the people of Camberwell being tucked up like a kipper, removed from the public domain never to be used by the people who live and work here ever again, is hardly new.
I moved to Camberwell in 1995 and picked up on this immediately — people who had moved to in the area fifteen or more years, and five or ten years, before said they chose Camberwell because it is central, affordable, and they were certain it would be the next place south of the river to regenerate. They all recounted how wrong they had been and pointed out that, if anything, it remained a place in continual decline.
We live in what is a local democracy where local people are supposed to be able to influence development and regeneration in their own locality. When I first got involved with Camberwell Arts Week in 1996 people were already saying “people in Camberwell have been consulted to death” by their Local Authorities about outcomes they would like to see in regeneration and development of their area. And were worn out because nothing, ever, was done other than more consulting.
In 1999 a research document entitled ‘The Future of The Arts in Southwark’ was commissioned by Southwark. Camberwell was identified as a place of unusual creative concentration focus that lacked, to its detriment, any substantial accessible public arts provision. Key speakers at the Glaziers’ Hall conference which came with the work included one of the Bilbao councillors who have been instrumental in seeing through the Guggenheim Museum project. This was an exciting period where it seemed that Camberwell was finally about to get some meaningful support from local government. It did not. It did not move on, it just continued to slide back, losing facilities and services. All this is real, all this is well documented, all this was completely avoidable, all has been horribly inevitable.
In 2007 SE5 Forum for Camberwell made a deputation to Southwark Council Executive over the future of a building on Crawford Road / Coldharbour Lane which has just been put up to auction, at two week’s notice, without even the briefest local consultation. A situation not dissimilar to that of Gala except the building was controlled by Southwark. It had an in perpetuity covenant that it must be reserved for community use, which had been eroded by the business case that it would be too costly to retain for community use, and it was sold to the private sector with the capital proceeds going into Southwark’s general accounts with no plans to ring fence the receipts income to be spent improving Camberwell elsewhere.
The delegation made it crystal clear to the executive that local people saw this building as a watershed, a line which must not be crossed again, an emblem of Camberwell’s neglect which should be a marker for the local authority to note: It was seen as YET ANOTHER piece of local community potential that had been snatched from local people, to be removed permanently from any form of public use, with the proceeds taken to be spent elsewhere in the borough. We urged the Authority not to allow this erosion of our environment and public facility to happen again.
Anyone notice any change generally?
The most recent case of important local bricks and mortar that might conceivably have been put to use to fill gaps in local provision for the community at large are those properties the Authority has vacated around Southwark Town Hall. They have been sold out of public domain without so much a murmur of consultation with the community who live and work all around who will be directly impacted by what ever future use is made of these Camberwell gems. Where will the proceeds go? Damned right — NOT here for sure.
Section 68 money from local development projects — where does that go? Who knows? Not local officers, not local people, not local councillors. Someone knows. Well, someone ought to know.
Camberwell has been ignored, marginalised, overlookes, patronised, patted on the head and now abandoned by successive local government administrations. It is a scandal, it is why Camberwell is the mess it is now. IN spite of Camberwell Green being a physical centre, Camberwell Truly has no community focus, nowhere to look to, nowhere to call its heart, nowhere that reflects, represents and rewards our local populations (there are many populations here, the real strength of our SE5 community) for their being here. There is little reason to have civic pride, little reason to care about the area, little reason to nurture what’s here.
The Gala site could change all of this in one project. It could refocus the whole community, tell the nation and the world what a singularly marvellous place this is and put Camberwell on the map once and for all.
AND SE5 has ALL the people immediately in the area who could make ALL of this work, from visioning to commissioning to completion to operating and managing the end result.
Not complicated it it?
Mark please run as a local councillor. We need someone with your vision for Camberwell
@figen
I’m not entirely sure what you are referring to by grade 11 and D11, but you seem to be mixing up a number of different planning issues. Firstly, Grade II is a classification that protects historically or architecturally valuable buildings from structural changes without permission. The bingo hall building is Grade II and structural changes will require approval. However, more significant to this discussion is its planning use class. The planning officer was very clear that a planning application would have to be made. The site currently is a class D2 site, which is able to be used as a bingo hall and also a cinema, concert hall, gymnasium and a number of other assembly and leisure uses. It is NOT able to be used as a place of worship without a successful planning application to class D1 planning status. Both D1 and D2 are for community-type uses, but cover very different activities. Therefore, until they make a successful planning application, the bingo hall should not be used as a place of worship.
The planning officer did say that there was no particular use-type specified for this location in the Southwark Plan, which sets a planning frame-work for the entire borough. Nonetheless a change of use category for any site still requires a successful planning application which can reasonably be objected to on a number of grounds.
@ Mark
It would be really useful to collect all these documents and plans and make them available online for people to see. Doubtless some of them are on the council’s website, but would take ages to track down. It would be better to have them on a single website where people interested in the bingo hall building could see the background and then were able to refer to particular documents if and when they made planning objections.
It’s section 106 money, by the way. You must be thinking of 1968 — the year of popular protests against governments which were not fulfiling the wishes of the people. I can’t see any link to this situation myself…
I’m embarrassed about the section 68. I think in Camberwell 106 is less than because we’re so culturally impoverished.
@ james it looks like the one getting it mixed up, yes grade 2 is the classification of a building but grade one thing u got wrong is changing the building into a place of worship as the building also includes that already. If the building in question was a d1 then the church would have to apply for it to be changed to a d2 which was while kicc change to d2 was opposed successfully by locals. Rccg are well organised charitable organisation with the best legal team and put all there reseach in place. Pls remember the church is not a building but people. I for one live in camberwell now for over ten years and attends the church and I have been working with the youths and elderly in southwark. Pls u note u not dealing with uneducated people herem
. Again have wondered while there was much turnout at the meeting by locals and outside… Think about this…just one more thing check out our festival of life meetings online which this same politicals u claiming arer backing ur cause attends To be speakers…rest my case …
5pm deadline TODAY for comment on the Core Planning Strategy for Southwark, in order to have your comment considered by Secretary of State. Commenting effectively will be the most important thing anyone does for Camberwell this year, bar nothing.
corestrategy@southwark.gov.uk with your comment, name & address, and it’s as simple as that. If nothing else, email them to say you support the Southwark Living Streets comment on the CS, which sets out an effective vision of reducing traffic impact in Camberwell Green district centre and promoting village economies throughout SE5.
Also james with d above u wrote OTHER ASSEMBLY pls remember that in legal terms that can be interpreted as place where people assemble in other words worship.…pls do more research on ur cause and let’s hear it
Dear all,
I am trying not to spend too much time writing on this blog because I feel that most of what I agree with is being said more effectively by others, and also since I am updating and running the CamberwellVillageHall.com website for some reason I seem to have less time on my hands than I used to.
However, I would like to point out one or two things.
1. Since the meeting on Wednesday people, especially politicans, have understood that we are not anti church but pro the community.
2. I think the idea that the bingo hall could be a mixed use venue is fairly obvious. No-one is advocating that it would become purely a cinema. If you want to know what it could be see the link below. If you have any more ideas please leave a comment.
http://camberwellcommunitycinema.webs.com/apps/blog/entries/show/3000578-a-vision-a-village-hall–
3. The campaign to retain the hall for public use is gaining support from almost every section on the community. Fr. Nick George from St. Giles and Phil Stokes from The Well support the idea of a Village Hall. Every time I speak to leaders of different groups they understand that the campaign we are running is not about bashing the church. This is why they are happy to support us.
4. I do not expect the council to put up much money. However, compared to what it could cost to repair Camberwell this seems like a pretty cheap option. Give it £10 million and we could have something to be proud of. That may sound like a lot and I am plucking it out of the air somewhat, but I think we could aim and get that in funding, grants and fundraising. Compared to other regeneration projects, £10 million is peanuts!
That’s my two cents worth for today.
Bit of a change from the Bingo. Good old Southwark Council!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7375671/Jogger-locked-in-public-toilet-on-Christmas-Day-wins-compensation.html
I’ve tried posting this twice with no success. Third time lucky!
Here’s a template for comments relating to the Camberwell Community Cinema/Village Hall for the Core Strategy Consultation.
You must include your name and postal address. The email address is: corestrategy@southwark.gov.uk
Dear Sir/Madam
I wish to submit the following comments on the draft Core Strategy. They refer to those sections of the Core Strategy relating to Camberwell.
The draft Core Strategy is currently unsound because it recognises the importance of the artistic and creative industries to Camberwell, but fails to include any measures by which these industries can be protected.
The Core Strategy must give additional protection to the enhancement of Camberwell as a centre of major artistic and creative importance. The draft Core Strategy includes the statement that Camberwell’s ‘reputation as a creative place with artistic influences’ should be ‘encouraged’. The Core Strategy should also include guidelines that ensure the enhancement of Camberwell’s reputation as a creative and artistic centre by recommending that planning permission should usually be denied for any planning application that would reduce the provision of spaces for art and culture purposes in Camberwell Town Centre or for any planning application that would be detrimental to Camberwell’s reputation as an artistic and cultural centre.
The draft Core Strategy is unsound because it recognises Camberwell’s status as a retail centre, but includes insufficient measures to support and protect this status.
The Core Strategy should recognise that Camberwell Town Centre is a retail, leisure and cultural centre that requires support and protection. The Core Strategy should therefore protect the relevant planning uses of Camberwell Town Centre area, including stretches of Camberwell Road up to and including the former Gala Bingo Hall, and parts of Camberwell Church Street, Camberwell New Road, Denmark Hill and Coldharbour Lane.
The Core Strategy should include guidelines that planning permission should usually be denied for any planning application for change of use in the Camberwell Town Centre that reduces the availability of the following use categories: shops (A1), financial and professional services (A2), restaurants and cafes (A3), drinking establishments (A4) or assembly and leisure (D2).
I also belive that in considering use-types critical to the success of town centres the Core strategy should distinguish between 1) types of assembly such as those for culture and leisure that are open to all members of the community regardless of beliefs and 2) those such as places of worship that appeal only to certain sectors of the community. The core strategy should favour the first type for town centre locations.
Yours,
Your Name
Your Address
Well done Mr. James J.
I would also add the following since they are not included. You have 30 minutes to do so.
* The Core Strategy is currently unsound because it does not distinguish the difference in community facilities. There is no distinction between churches, places of worship, facilities for older people or the gay community, secular and non religious centres, sports facilities, community centres, libraries, etc..
* The Core Strategy should recognise that there needs to be a balance of community facilities in each area of Southwark.
@loveth
Please have a look at the following document. You may find it informative.
http://www.croydon.gov.uk/contents/documents/planningdocs/802256/888595/8.1_25_Church_Road_SE19
The following quote is particularly relevant:
something me & jc ‘prepared earlier’:
we’re making a move, we’re making it now, we’re coming out of the side-lines, just put your hands up, it’s a raid yeah, we want your homes, we want your lives, we want the things you won’t allow us, we won’t use guns, we won’t use bombs, we’ll use the one thing we’ve got more of, that’s our minds.
well done everyone, there’s going to be a few emails to a few of you tomorrow
xxxxx
this is to tom, James and victor.….for you to understand what RCCG is all about pls watch sky channel 199 now as they are having a meeting right now and if u missed today’s one pls watch again tomorrow from 7pm.…..i see guys before the paul of this generation.….if u are bible incline u should know his sorry if not.…i will tell u bout him.….he was just against the church as u guys but got assested by God and became the most influencial man on planet earth. what a joy to see people from all over the world assembled to meet with the king of kings.….
@Liliana: looking forward to the emails. Copeywolf found this great find: http://bit.ly/d71R5Y
And Southwark News found this: http://bit.ly/aLqSHZ
If you’re interested in the latter email me on mark@sunanddoves.co.uk for more detail as it comes ready.
@James your above comment goes to show how little you understanding about listing and usaged of listed property workes. so pls for your own good follow the link below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welling
and i am drawing this part of the aticle to ur attention
“The MECCA bingo hall in Upper Wickham Lane has ceased trading, apparently one of six in England unsuited to operate after the national ban on smoking in public places.[citation needed] This large building, which originally was an Odeon cinema, is now empty awaiting modernisation. An application by the Mountain of Fire and Miracles Ministries based in Lagos, Nigeria, to change the Mecca building’s use from (Use Class D1) to a place of worship (Use Class D2) has been approved by Bexley Council”.
and again to tech u more about this the lgeal definition for THE TERM ASSEMBLY IS 1. A group of people gathering, coming together, or meeting, or already so assembled, for a common purpose.
2. A legislative body, especially, in many states, the lower house of the state legislature.
WHILE unlawful assembly
Three or more individuals gathering, coming together, or meeting with the common intention of committing a violent crime or some act, lawful or unlawful, that will breach the peace.
if after this evidence which forms a precedent in court u still agruing that makes u and ur co-ops anti curch. maybe u do understand while the councilors and co are supporting a mixed used. i am out.……
i am back.…i was expecting u to mention how churches are been unjustly treated..in your long post.. but again people like you claim not to be anti church but ur actions and what u say give you away.…following all ur comments and post in various sites makes me now understand it is a new trend to oppose churches and i can grant u RCCG will be the last.….
hope u read my post above which i refered u to bexley council.
http://www.cpaparty.org.uk/?page=videos&id=1076
Wikipedia should not be considered to always be accurate. It is written by volunteers.
In the above article it has the uses permitted for D1 and D2 the wrong way round.
see here:
http://www.drawingandplanning.com/consultants-london/use-classes-d1-d2.html
I reckon I’d stick to drawingandplanning.com if I wanted to take on a building. That other guy’s avin’ a larf innit. This: http://bit.ly/a9Hcru is an interesting set of information,
Here’s some interesting stats NOT from Wikipedia about valued buildings and how they impact on society:
The full report is here: http://bit.ly/bPzNjn
Institute of Public Policy research has tackled some interesting stuff in its time. They specialise in joined up thinking. The next time they hold a ceremony I’ll be there.
@ loveth
Your idea of research appears to be reading wikipedia. Your idea of a legal definition appears to be a dictionary definition.
I think I’d rather save my energy and words to argue these things with planning officers and councillors should it come to that.
Went to Safa’s last night and it was mobbed. So was Angels and Gypsies.
Camberwell is definitely a lot busier these days — might try and check out The Tiger this weekend.
Anyone got any feedback on it yet?
Tiger is rather good. I like it a lot. But them I’m old and don’t get out often.
Seriously. It’s quirky, good. They’ve managed to make an authentic feeling pub by taking an abused Georgian building, ripping out vile 19 and 20 century tat add ons, bringing it back to bare bones then throwing in a bit of post WW2 Ration era decor and ambience. It’s very clever in a genuine non self satisfied way. Believe me it’s HARD to get a place that right straight off the mark.
Plus the staff are all cheery and willing and manage to make it feel like a well established business even though the paint’s barely had a chance to dry and there’s still a lot of frills and tucks to sort out around the edges.
Tiger’s not doing food yet — that’s in a week or so, I can’t remember the date but if you go in you can fill in a little bookmark with your email address for a chance to be one of ten people invited to a special menu tasting before it gets underway.
In short: A great addition to Camberwell much needed and it could not have been done by a better outfit than Antic.
Grrrrrrrr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdodds/4410378529/
Here’s a Bag of Beans for us all to follow:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdodds/4413427970/
And we bring you this important information about the next ‘Camberwell Community Love Feast’ taking place next weekend;
‘Come and eat as much as you can and you will be blessed.’
Can’t WAIT.
Here’s a Bag of Beans for us all to follow:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdodds/4413427970/
And we bring you this important information about the next ‘Camberwell Community Love Feast’ taking place next weekend; http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4016/4412658919_128e803529.jpg
‘Come and eat as much as you can and you will be blessed.’
Can’t WAIT.
I have had the expected mixed response to my Blog and Press comments but this is clearly now a Planning matter and in my view the Building should maintain it’s current designation as a public community use building including entertainment.
This will be the key as the Planning Application will be for a “Change of Use” and the Committe wil have to be pursuaded that this is the most desorable outsome. Bromley Council have rejecetd such an appliation in Crystal palace which the RCCG are Appealling so that will be interesting to follow and any Application will come after May so I will not be the local Ward Councillor by then so my input will be as a local resident!
Anyone attempting to make this a matter of race or religious is completely missing the point and probably doing so deliberately an it should not distract anyone from the real Planning issues about change of use.
I hope that everyone can focus on this s this is where the application will succeeed or fail!
@Cllr John Friary
Do you have contact details for the two new Labour candidates for Camberwell Green? The Southwark Labour website suggests they will be Kevin Ahern and Rt Rev Emmanuel Oyewole. Is that right? Now they are candidates, we should be able to ask their views on the bingo hall and other issues, but there are no contact details on the Southwark Labour website. Thanks
James can we have the so called church organise a panel interview for the local election coming up? the place takes 2000? southwark has never had such unless you can correct me. we need to hear the views of candidates on important issues that concern us.
i agree with john that we retain the former bingo as an event centre open to all. if the church is keen let them respond to this.As for me, whoever can maintain and sustain this great building should own it and get the permit sentiments apart and don’t let us play into the hands of those who wants to play race and religion or sexuality cards!
@ Jenny, I’m not sure what you mean by ‘sexuality cards’ — we are going to try to meet with the church to find out more, but their literature makes clear that this church considers homosexuals on a par with murderers. As you can imagine, it might be quite difficult for gay people to use the facilities that belong to, are run by, and are filled by, people who hold this specific belief, and speculatively they might be less keen to let gay people use their services (just as they would presumably be unkeen to host a murderers’ ball, for instance). At the same time, gay people might be nervous or against using facilities run by people with such beliefs. However we are very happy to try to understand their precise views on the subject and how these would fit in with using the facilities before we jump to any conclusions. I absolutely agree that Camberwell needs an ‘event centre open to all’ … I’m just worried that ‘all’ may turn out to be a defined and narrow group of people, which will be counterproductive, splitting Camberwell rather than uniting it, and encouraging prejudice and discrimination in our community, so further exploration is required. This is not a ‘sexuality card’. It’s just us aspiring to achieve a real community hall for Camberwell, rather than one in name alone, based on one specific religious belief system, that excludes and divides and goes against the ethos of our country and our community.
@Jenny, I’ve got some sexuality cards.
Actually it’s my second pack. I had some as a schoolkid and really liked them cos they were hardcore (this was before the web) and they were also quite portable and thus easy to hide (unlike a magazine).
My mate had some too and even sold them off individually to younger pupils, but he got bust.
Anyway, a few years ago I got some more as a sort of joke from Greece. They’re OK but on one or two there’s some weird stuff in there involving animals that I wasn’t expecting.
Still, they’ve come in handy for a game of poker or ‘snap’ when on camping trips etc.
Latest article from South London Press on the bingo hall — it includes some quotes from the church:
http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/tn/news.cfm?id=8900&headline=Groups%20to%20use%20Camberwell%20bingo%20hall
As mentioned in the comments section, the use of the words “try” and “intend” is a little worrying. I don’t want to be cynical but I wouldn’t be surprised if the church promises a lot initially in order to limit opposition towards their change of use application, and then if successful, that all goes out the window!
if some of you are around the next few weeks, pop over to this?
http://www.peoplesrepublicofsouthwark.co.uk/news/we-love-camberwell-workshops
(people’s republic of southwark will be there on a few of the dates)
x
A few updates for you here on the campaign.
There is much happening behind the scenes and we are meeting with the RCCG next week. We will let you know how it goes.
Things are going to hot up in the run up to the local elections and with that in mind could you please have a look at this post on the our website: http://camberwellcommunitycinema.webs.com/apps/blog/show/3108053-support-politics-and-politicans–
For anyone who hasn’t done it already please go to our website, copy the letter and send it to your local politicians. There are a few more on there that haven’t received many emails yet, namely Nicholas Stanton the leader of Southwark Council and Lewis Robinson who is the Executive member for culture, leisure and sport for Southwark. Neither of them have responded to our emails yet so a little reminder of how important this is to you would be appreciated. There is an updated template letter on the front page if you want some help!
http://www.CamberwellVillageHall.com for those of you who don’t know.
Don’t please, anyone, forget the ‘Camberwell Community Love Feast Dinner’ tomorrow:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/markdodds/4412658919/
With the Destiny International Christian Assembly.
“Come and eat as much as you can and you will be blessed.” Give me a sandwich board; give me some tracts; let’s get Proselytizing! Well, let’s have some dins first.
If anyone has time to look at this it might be good for us:
Win a £10,000 transformation for your local community:
http://uktv.co.uk/home/stepbystep/aid/634006
Talking of feeding trolls, Heston Blumenthal just ate our smoked mackerel pate with horseradish and beetroot relish http://bit.ly/bVI4J1
dont know who heston blumenthal is but like the sound of horseradish & beetroot relish. not that im european or nuffink.
x
Heston Services on the M4 is the site of the old Heston aerodrome where Neville Chamberlain landed in 1938 waving his piece of paper offering peace in our time from Chancellor Hitler.
67003 pulled a pullman train through Camberwell this afternoon, maybe the “Whitstable jolly” excursion train rather than the full Orient Express.
The Class 67s are purely diesel, not electric. 67003 still has ESW livery despite ESW being bought last year by a German rail company.
The 67s are not well liked by gricers, whose nicknames for them include “skip”, “bucket”, “corrugated iron shed” and “cyclops” (they have a big single-panel windscreen).
The UK is itself a commercially predatory country so we cannot rue the fact that our bingo halls and railway trains are being bought by others.
However, the UK tends to buy banks which turn out to be not so much a can of worms as a soggy paper bag, containing cockroaches, that is about to “go through”.
You’ve just given Heston the idea for a new recipe. Smoked mackerel, horseradish and beetroot flavoured ice cream coming soon to the Fat Duck.
We had a fat duck from the small Somerfield this week for £4.93. It shrivelled in the oven, though, and came out looking like a headless model. That just goes to show how much more closely chickens are related to dinosaurs. The flightless chickens come out of the oven grinning and grimacing rather than submissive and simpering.
Anyhow, we are fitting a bored-out 1.6 litre Rover K-Series engine to the chassis we have made from the duck bones and are going to bomb round Camberwell in the weirdest-looking but fastest kit car you have ever briefly glimpsed, like a Caterham Se7en made out of a duck carcass.
The Horniman aquarium now has black star northern sea nettles, who obtain and stun their prey, which includes fish and other jellies, with their stinging tentacles before transporting it to their gastrovascular cavity where it is subsequently digested.
Tonight, in the eateries all over the Camberwell, the same aeons-old procedure is being followed by predatory, salary-carapaced arthropods battening on pathetically genetically inferior, slow-moving, vilely vulnerable, immobilisedly engrossed, pale and fatty, infuriatingly prone lesser species.
@ Mark
“Come and eat as much as you can” at the Destiny International Christian Assembly.
Read: commit one (maybe four?) of the seven deadly sins in one fell swoop and qualify for some BIG TIME redemption before you can leave the room.
Nice hook.
I think it’s fair to assume that Dagmar’s Ducks didn’t form part of the Love Feast.
Doesn’t sound as though you could stuff a mushroom with one of them, let alone a hungry so-and-so.