Camberwell Village Hall update
Written by monkeycat | Filed under Development, Politics
Dear all,
This is a quick new post. Basically, we have had a fantastic response so far and we have had about 600 people sign a petition to object to the change of use of the Bingo Hall to a church within a week. Most of these people come from Camberwell and most people are upset that there has been little or no consultation with people from Camberwell, and also that there is are no guarantees that the building will be available in any meaningful way for the community. There is a lot of rhetoric in the planning application about serving the community but it doesn’t amount to a “hill of beans” as some wise chap once said (Humphrey Bogart I think). In other words, it’s hot air and there are no guarantees that they will help or facilitate access for community activities.
On top of this the plans allow for a seating arrangement for 1500 people, with around 450 cars being used, if the place is at capacity, to bring them here. This most certainly is against planning regulations.
Add to this the loss to the local economy since there are no guarantees that the money generated by the church will stay here, and the fact that a lot of the potential congregation will not be local and you start to see that there is no way that this planning application should be allowed.
The Camberwell Village Hall Campaign has written its objections which you can see here. There are three parts, with parts one and two below. They are long, but there is much to object to!
http://bit.ly/objectionletterpart1
http://bit.ly/objectionletterpart2
So what can you do?
In theory, the consultation period has ended, but according to the head of planning at Southwark and the planning officer, it is still possible to send your representations to them. Here is a link to the Camberwell Village Hall campaign. In it you will find all the documents and information you need to make more objections to the change of use and letters you can send to planning. The quicker you do it the better and the more of you who do so the better too.
There is also a petition you can sign which is at
http//:bit.ly/camberwellvillagehallpetition
Thank you everyone who has helped so far. I think we have a very strong case and hopefully soon we will have a building that the whole community can use.
Just have his feelings that complete opposition to the house of praise will not the cause you are fighting for.
It is now crystal clear that the sentiment is purely Angie house of praise!
I wonder where we will take this if they manage to get the planning permission.
Following all the links so far just shows that we are not fighting for the community but our own agenda!
You may decide not to publish my comments but some of us are aware that your campaign is biased.
The campaign is biased towards a kinder, quieter Camberwell. If the church get the property, then Camberwell people will just get on with it like they did during the bombing in World War II.
@ Harry: In many respects I agree with what you are saying. However, since the House of Praise refuse to actually enter into meaningful discussions with the local community, is it any wonder that we are objecting?
Sadly, there is, under current planning law, no other way of getting round the situation we find ourselves in.
If I could get the church to open up the building to the community I would. If I thought they were genuinely interested in talking to the community, I would not be objecting to the planning application.
However, since they are not interested in the local community, we at CVH will campaign against the change of use. When we win, and when the building is a community based centre, it will be available for anyone to use. As a church, it will not. That is why I am against it.
If you read the whole of the objections letter (which I admit is very long) you will see that it is more about the lack of community facilities that would be provided and the negative impact to the local area that are our main objections, not the church itself.
I can’t really functionally understand what Harry’s trying to say.
Anyhow Harry, you clearly haven’t been around here long enough to see that a comment such as yours would never be pulled off this blog — this blog is about openness and frank discussion among other things like burgers and window cleaners.
Personally Harry I’m VERY biased. SERIOUSLY biased. And why shouldn’t I be? That building IS NOT A CHURCH Harry, it’s a social meeting place. I don’t want a church there. I want a place of culture, education and entertainment for me, for my kids, for everyone I know.
House of Praise, Harry, have shown no evidence, whatsoever, of any desire of intention of serving the local community with anything other than god. Although, come to think of it, some people blogging in support of House of Praise earlier this year could barely hold back their glee that they were going to come into Camberwell and save the citizens of this village of the damned from themselves and bring them to god. That made me do several things at once, none of which I’ll go into just now.
In total principle I don’t have a problem about House of Praise coming to Camberwell per se, even though this is NOT THEIR MANOR as far as I can see from having met the Pastor. But their coming here — as going to any area — should be done with proper consent and discussion with the people who’s it’s going to affect.
Anyway it was obvious when we did meet the church’s reps they were only fishing with poor people to find out how much rent they could get in from us — and for some ideas for community involvement they could rattle into their planning app. Apart from that they weren’t bovvered. IN my estimation.
Suffice it to say HARRY, thanks for your contribution, look forward to more of your unbiased insights about the area.
CPO CPO CPO CPO
Harry
It’s the last purpose-built cinema/theatre building, therefore an entertainment/leisure building left in Camberwell.
This place once had 4 cinemas — The Grand, The Essoldo and The Odeon as well as this building which was the Regal/ABC.
In the case of The Essoldo & The Odeon the loss of both venues occured under extremely dubious circumstances — despite widespread community opposition at the time. (If you don’t believe this, then pay a visit to the John Harvard, Southwark Local History library on Borough High Street and do some digging).
The Odeon was an absolutely criminal case of neglect…practically demolished overnight before anybody could object –on this occasion by Lambeth — again you may find these details at The Minet Library in Myatt’s Field.
It is a negative cycle of behaviour which repeats itself over and over again without fail concerning Camberwell and the two local authorities which cover our community.
It’s time to break the habit of a lifetime — if this building is lost, there won’t be any more opportunities to genuinely help Camberwell to renew itself in a progressive way…
I and many others are dissapointed that the Labour Party which is supposed to represent progressive social economics has made such a mess of this area despite it being a safe seat for 40+ years — it’s not good enough — we should have been more than entitled to expect a lot better than the current situation.
@Monkeycat
The petition link is missing the “http://” so isn’t resolving to the correct web address.
Thanks for keeping us to date with the campaign.
@joedamage: I’ve fixed the link now, cheers.
On a different subject, the new cafe at Chumleigh Gardens in Burgess Park opens this coming Saturday at 10am under new management.
OK, the lime green may not be to everyone’s taste and it may no longer offer the tranquillity of the Islamic Garden on its doorstep, but by being open to the rest of the park it should attract more custom and make for a more viable business.
I think it’s in everyone’s interest if the cafe is a success. The more people that use it, the better the range of food it will be able to offer. Plus a busy and staffed facility looking out at the play area and park should help reduce anti-social behaviour far more effectively than the ugly CCTV cameras.
Let’s just hope that there will still be a few tables in the Islamic Garden for those who want somewhere a bit of peace and quiet.
Thanks James J. The new cafe sounds good.
Speaking of new, yesterday I went past the New Gallery I heard about on this here blog. They’re still working on it, but it looks great.
It’s going to be a coffee shop and, by night, a bar-type place. Fixtures and fittings all look suitably high-end. Hope they pull it off.
Roz and I swung past the New Gallery at the weekend and ran into the owner who says he hopes it will be opening in about two weeks. I agree it looks great — can’t wait. Apparently they’ll be hosting all sorts of interesting events.
Speaking of events, has anyone been to one of the ‘Halfway House’ events on Friday nights at House http://www.house-gallery.co.uk/?page_id=386 ? I’m intrigued. Meant to check it out last Friday but was distracted by the excellent (and absolutely packed) private view at GX Gallery.
James J @
I love the Islamic Garden at Chumleigh Gardens…
Very Moorish…not a bad recreation of the many in Jerez (Xerez) where one of my cousin now lives…Ahhhh!…Sherry
Is sherry a drink or a girl? Sometimes the decision to choose between the two is hard. In fact simple.
Why Tony Blair invented the phrase “hard choices” is simple.
Because he was saying you had no choice, it was easy.
I have to say, as a Danish girl through and through with my strong thighs, strong this and strong THAT, I am glad the awful posh New Labour braying & bleating — in that posh Harriet Harman voice — has now gone from the telly & radio scene.
Dagmar @
In this country Sherry was commonly considered a girl’s drink…The word itself is a mispronounciation of Jerez/Xerez where it’s produced.
Most of the stuff sent here was the very sweet variety — Hence the “and something sweet for the little lady, she knows her place” reputation.
Not that I agree with that last statement at all, merely a historical observation
Another observation of a historical nature is that a bottle of QC sherry downed to wash down blue tablets called ‘dum dums’ always, historically, in the past, you understand, got three to four students of the arts hallucinating simultaneously. Very good value apparently.
Emva Cream from Cyprus was Britain’s favourite sherry for years because the tax bands favoured it — but from January 1996 only Jerez sherry was allowed to be called sherry.
Buckfast Tonic Wine is medicinal.
I quite like a glass of Harvey’s Bristol Cream with ice and a slice of orange. Our friend bought us a bottle as a gift, although she mistakenly thought it was wine.
A SERIOUS ASK FOR HELP.
Don’t know where exactly to start with this, there’s a lot behind this point
Basically I’m asking you, if you think The Sun and Doves is an asset to the area, and a benefit to the Camberwell community to write an email or letter saying so — detailing why, which I can forward to Lambeth Business Rates department.
The essence is that Lambeth Business Rates department tell me that pubs are not regarded as being of local amenity or of benefit to the community and so do not qualify for Emergency Rate Relief, which I applied for in March this year after Coldharbour Lane was closed to buses for five weeks which knocked 30% off our income for the whole period — at the lowest income part of the year when cash flow is at its tightest and when we are always in a terrible squeeze for money. I was already unable to pay the last instalment of 2009 / 2010’s rates bill (£29,000 a year payable) and asked for it to be added to this year’s — refused — and asked for stage payments — refused until I stuck my heels in but this took a long time to get their agreement and me pointing out their published ‘customer charters’ and so on — then they sent bailiffs in because I did not set up a standing order because they did not confirm in writing the agreement they made on the phone for me to pay weekly up to October 2010 and, quite frankly, I forgot because it wasn’t in my email box. The bailiffs threatened to take furniture and all that and also added £588 to the outstanding £1,980 for their fees. Lambeth refused point blank to call them off and I finally got rid of them through being intensely stubborn and focused and by finding out about and firing the law back at them. BUT this took two days of telephone calls and emails, a hell of a lot of sweat and nonsense.
NOW they tell me that pubs are not like doctor’s surgeries and something else which escapes me right now because they offer no benefit to the community. What the rates department is saying basically that if I do not pay them the best part of £30K for the privilege of being on Coldharbour Lane and all that entails, or if I cannot pay them because there simply is not enough money with which to pay them, then they will simply shut me down. This attitude of their does, of course apply to all small businesses. I think they need to be educated.
PLEASE, if you believe my pub offers the Camberwell community something that would be lost if it were not here, please, send me an endorsement.
the address is mark@sunanddoves.co.uk
Please MARK the subject field as RE Lambeth Rates Department / community / pubs
Thanks
Mark
Have sent. Pubs really are important social centres that are rapidly disappearing as everyone knows. Poor Lambeth, in every way. They always seem to want to do the right thing, not the best thing.
J Mark Dodds @
Yep, will do — In my usual succinct manner
@Mark — sent you a mail. Hope it says enough; if not let me know.
On a side note — looks like there’s a new chinese restaurant opening opposite Safa.
Hope they serve up something more interesting than Noodels.
@Mark: I’ll likewise get something in writing for you tonight.
@Everyone: This year’s blue plaque shortlist is Camberwell-heavy: http://bit.ly/9y7E62 — I’ll be voting for Ruskin.
@Peter, Ruskin already has so much named after him, but what does poor Giant Haystacks have? Surely he’s an excellent role model for Camberwell’s young people — obese and violent!
Can’t think why Bovril didn’t keep the name ‘fluid beef’. Liquidised cow…makes my mouth water.
Re: Sun & Doves
I’d go for the “Més que un pub” line…
Arts venue, cultural center, ad-hoc cinema, occasional post-office…
Giant Bovril,“Fluid Beef” himself.
My vote goes to Muriel Spark, though I agree it’s ridiculous there isn’t already a Blue Plaque to Ruskin who was an incredibly complex and intriguing man. He sort of completely got it — was a big fan of Turner — and completely didn’t get it at all — was a bit funny, especially about ladies, etc.
I’d go for the quantum physics guy. Enough of these liberal arts/bovril conspiracies.
@St Giles. Interesting about the possible new Chinese, thanks. Hope it’s not just another vanilla Chinese place. Silk Rd has showed that veering off the Hong Kong sweet n sour agenda can bring in plenty bucks and you don’t even have to spend anything on decorating the place.
Thanks to those of you who’ve sent en endorsement, I really appreciate it. If you haven’t please do, if you agree the Sun and Doves is more than a pub.
This whole experience I’ve had of working / being dealt with by local authorities on both sides of the divide tells me that many times the authority contrives to work in perfect opposite to the way they believe they do — when you read their customer charters. It’s something I’ve brought up, touched on, with other people who have businesses in the SE5 area and so far I’ve not met one person who has a positive experience of the services provided to them as businesses by their LA. Intransigent, distant, inefficient and downright acting against the interests of sustaining the local economy is the sort of thing I’ve heard so far.
I’m going to try to make local authorities’ behaviour top of the hit list of topics of discussion to bring together local businesses in Camberwell Business Forum.
My contribution winging its way to you Mark (but let’s have the fishfinger bap back please, it’s a great comfort food
. Best of luck!
When I was a little girl in Denmark, we had lots of earthy jokes about fishfingers! And baps!
Autumn has come to daytime Camberwell. At this rate of rain, the conkers will be like bulls’ bollocks soon on the chestnut trees.
That little exhibition at the Cuming Museum is great — wallpaper by William Morris and a Camberwell wallpaper designer.
Victorian and Edwardian London was abo-sol-utely vast — go north of the river and it never ends till you get to Epping Forest — requiring much wallpaper.
We cross the river back to South London and the lungs and heart system somehow opens out and we breathe more freely.
Does anyone else begin to submerse at the the first signs of the turning of the year?
I’ve been autumnally submerged for well over a decade. Dagmar’s Baps are back on the menu. I mean I’ve seen them being made and sent out to the fishfinger crew.
Many, many thanks for the letters of support re Lambeth Rates department. I have found their reading unexpectedly moving…
The link to the point: http://www.camberwellonline.co.uk/2010/08/789/#comment-148737
Please, if you have not had the chance to offer support for the position that The Sun and Doves is an asset to the community, do spend a little time and send a note expressing your views.
Have people seen this website with the plans for the former council buildings on Peckham Road?
http://www.peckhamroadbuildings.co.uk/
@James J: I hadn’t seen that; very interesting. They’re going to create a student village here in Camberwell. Imagine the possibilities for the local economy!
There’s a lot of information on that link James posted. Interesting but impossible to make comparisons before and after. Damn Hippies.
Anyone seen this bit of old news: http://bit.ly/hz1l ?
At the private view/opening night of The New Gallery on Peckham Rd — interesting. Come along!
Baby sitting so cannot come along… have a good evening! Been meaning to tall you that Flint’s have been down the Sun and Doves doing quotes for the cinema curtains.
Mark — fab. All — yesterday we visited both the new Chumleigh Gardens replacement cafe and the New Gallery London — blog post here: http://www.gaycamberwell.com/gc-blog.html
For a summary of what’s going on in Camberwell in September, visit http://www.gaycamberwell.com/updates.html
About the Gala Bingo Hall becoming a church… i just have some questions. Was the building privately owned or publicly owned… Was camberwell generating any revenue from Gala Bingo?
It is clear to me that the building was owned by gala and they sold it to the church. Frankly i dont think that people have to be consulted before a property owner sells their building. Also, how do you know the church would not open its building to the community? A church in itself is a community building and is meant for the community. its a social outlet and environment that is beneficial in the sense that the ciommunity can benefit without having to spend a dime of their money.
The church am sure would plan to have some job opportunities for those living locally and also would prefer to have members locally. that is why the church is going there. it is very inconvenient for the church to bring members from ‘essex’ to camberwell all the time. I am sure the church wants local members.
Rather than fighting and campaigning against this church, why dont we put forward a list of reasonable suggestions (considering the fact that the building owned) for the church to help the community.
Regarding transportation I am sure the buses would not notice the difference. Parking and all that can be negotiated with the church.
I understand its a change for the community, but the change can also be a very good change if well taken advantage of. The church is a place supposed to be known for goodwill and kindness they would not want to do anything against this reputation.
I would also like to point attention to the fact that the person writing this petition might have a very selfish interest as well.
@lade: the building was privately owned and privately sold. very few people knew it was going to be sold in the first place and this is one of the contentious points, not because of the sale itself, but because the sale was made on the assumption that change of use would be granted. some argue that the former owner (gala bingo group) should have looked for a buyer who would have continued to use the building within the existing class. there may or may not be legal requirements to do this. i don’t know.
the planning application which the house of praise submitted is only at times aspirational and states a number of things they will be doing. the problem, as i see it, is in total lack of supporting evidence to show community/employment/economic benefits in areas where the church already has places of worship.
(to be continued)
@Lade: I am one of the people who, with many others, have been organising the petition and the Camberwell Village Hall campaign. Let me answer many of your questions in one sentence.
We are campaigning for an inclusive community based venue that benefits the WHOLE community.
If I thought in any way that the House of Praise was going to do even a fraction of that I would not be putting my efforts and energies(for which I will get no financial benefit) into campaigning against this change of use.
To mis-quote a former BP chairman, I would dearly love my life back!
In answer to your points specifically please see below:
1. About the Gala Bingo Hall becoming a church… i just have some questions. Was the building privately owned or publicly owned… Was camberwell generating any revenue from Gala Bingo?
The building was owned privately and has been sold privately, but without first publicly announcing that it was up for sale. Yes it was generating revenue for Camberwell since most of the staff and the people using it were from the area. Whilst it did not generate much income for the area, it was a valuable leisure resource.
2. Frankly i dont think that people have to be consulted before a property owner sells their building.
No, they don’t have to consult before selling the building, and we weren’t asking for that. However, the Church wants a change of use and have put in a planning application. They do need to consult the community for that. It is clear that they have not done so in any meaningful way (by which I mean they have had one meeting to meet members of the community and provided no guarantees. See next point0.
3. Also, how do you know the church would not open its building to the community? A church in itself is a community building and is meant for the community. its a social outlet and environment that is beneficial in the sense that the community can benefit without having to spend a dime of their money.
I know they would not because they have not given any evidence or guarantees that they would do so despite our and other people’s best efforts to do so. The plans submitted do not show any proper facilities or procedures for allowing the community to use the building.
4. The church am sure would plan to have some job opportunities for those living locally and also would prefer to have members locally. that is why the church is going there. it is very inconvenient for the church to bring members from ‘essex’ to camberwell all the time. I am sure the church wants local members.
The Pastor lives in Essex. The majority of people who support the church and sing its praises (excuse the pun) stating how it will help the community do not come from Camberwell but Croydon, Peckham, Catford, Kensington, Brixton, etc. Over 80% of those opposing are from Camberwell. The job opportunities from a Church are far more limited than those of a community led leisure venue and hall which we are proposing.
5. Rather than fighting and campaigning against this church, why dont we put forward a list of reasonable suggestions (considering the fact that the building owned) for the church to help the community.
We have tried. And the answer was along the lines of “thanks for the ideas, we’ll put them in the proposal but actually we will only allow them if we can have the moral veto and if we actually need the money”. In other words, they are not interested in helping the community unless it fits into their rather narrow agenda.
6.Regarding transportation I am sure the buses would not notice the difference. Parking and all that can be negotiated with the church.
Negotiate what exactly? Let me put it another way. If an events company had bought the building and wanted to hold parties that would result in around 450 cars every time where there will be less than 50 car parking spaces, would you be happy with that. I am only quoting their figures. Where will those cars, along with the pollution and noise and disturbance in local streets go?
7. I understand its a change for the community, but the change can also be a very good change if well taken advantage of. The church is a place supposed to be known for goodwill and kindness they would not want to do anything against this reputation.
You are right, change happens all the time. Change can be good. But this change will be detrimental to the cohesion and amenity of Camberwell. If you read the entire objections to the change of use you will get a much better picture. http://bit.ly/dfY2jF They are long but detail all the problems that would arise. The church has shown no goodwill and kindness so far, so why should it in the future?
8. I would also like to point attention to the fact that the person writing this petition might have a very selfish interest as well.
I do not want to own the building and I have no other interest in it except it becoming the centrepiece of improvements in the area. However, yes, I do have a selfish interest. I want Camberwell to be noticed for the right reasons. I want to know my neighbours not hate them because they are not of the same religion or sexual orientation. I want businesses to thrive and I want people to be proud of Camberwell and the varied lives we live here.
Hope this answers your questions. Please do ask if you have any more queries.
Tom.
What might ‘a very selfish interest’ be?
Hoping for a Bentley?
Ohhh! Yes please! Can everyone club together to get me a Bentley? That would be nice. Or a BMW 2002? Not fussy really.
a car? A CAR?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!
Holland and Barrett appear to be opening a branch in Butterfly walk. The poster in the window proclaims the 14th September. Why are the chains suddenly taking an interest in Camberwell? Is this a good thing? discuss..
Holland & Barrett used to be for properly neurotic, middle-class, walking well homopaths and the like, hippies, vague ‘uns, that kind of person. Now, however, it sells commercial muscle powder for narcissists as well as ladies’ primping powder. It also competes with the hitherto excellent value mail order companies like Nature’s Best, for the standard “Over Fifties Vim Pills”, joint pills, seaweed powder, etc.
So it is a high street staple, Holland’s, and most welcome here. Their Iranian dates are great. Their special offers can be excellent value.
It’s like opticians. At one time they were a Victorian-values, sacred mystery, proper professional monopoly. You’d go to Spain or Greece and the village ladies would look like film stars, auteurs or graphic designers with their fancy specs.
The pill business used to be equally special and expensive. Now everyone can be neurotic. It shows you’ve risen above the rudely healthy classes.
I remember my dad trying to buy a pack of Players No. 6 tips from H&B in the 70s. He came out with some dried apricots which gave him the sh1ts.
Holland and Barrett in Butterfly Walk? Really? That’s good news, definitely.
I was going to say surely it’ll struggle a bit there, but there’s one in Peckham you never know. And like Dagmar says they seem to have branched out into just another High St ubiquitous thing. Useful place though.
Anything that breaks the cycle of shit, cheap tat shops on that ‘walk’ has to be good. I’ve never really recovered from the book shop going.
I signed the Bingo petition last time I was in Mark’s gaff. My reasons are pure — I don’t want another church round here. Tired of em. Tired of the God drivel and the cars blocking streets and the pastors in their expensive cars (funny that). Go Dawkins, Go Hawking!
I worship only the Tennents Super. I see they’re making it more expensive in Scotland.
You seen that bearded dude always sat at the bus stop near former Rhino Sports / DRINK STORE? He’s a modern day apostle.
I’ve been watching him. He used to dabble in cider but every time I see him these days he’s only on the Super.
He’s found the purest path and he’s heading towards the light.
Fish n chips from Flying Fish has gone up to a hefty £6.50 now. The fish was not up to par.
A sandwich that cost me £3.50 two weeks ago now costs £3.80. Wheat prices rising.
Food riots in Africa, says the FT today.
Won’t be long til we’re all fighting in the streets over a can of Whiskas.
not convinced about the need for a holland and barrett as we’ve got a perfectly functioning local health food store already in ‘basic’ — next door to sugamoma on denmark hill. it does make me wonder if anyone’s at all bothering to do any research at all at all these days before buying expensive buildings/setting up businesses. or maybe it’s that camberwell’s seen as a wild west territory where anything goes as long as you has money?
perplexed smiley
Yeah, I did wonder about that place too. H+B do more stuff though. I don’t think they’re bothered about our local place. Plus there’ll be all the muscle kids to get their whey protein.
Reckon the NOTW will go after Hague again on Sunday?
Someone needs to unpick his claim that he can’t be gay if his wife had a miscarriage..
Excellent post Monkey!
There’s only one health food shop for me…
Baldwins on Walworth Road
As well as knowing their stuff…anybody who goes to the time,trouble and effort to produce such a fantstic retro shopfront and raise the standard is more than O.K by me and deserves my cash
Holland & Barrett + Shareholders = Extremely Wide Berth…
Agree, Euseb. Just walking into Baldwins makes you feel better. Their sage tea is a very wise buy for DIY rehab.
Who is Murdoch’s real target? Hague or Coulson? Nasty business, weird stuff, funny people.
Hopefully H&B won’t impact too much on Basic’s business; otherwise, I think it’s a very positive thing that chains are investing in Camberwell… as long as we keep a nice mix of independents. Speaking of which, I was in Sugarmomma the other day buying earrings — their stock of quality, unusual and cool women’s clothes, accessories and the like rivals any chains, and the owner is lovely. And I like being able to buy Vivienne Westwood shoes on Denmark Hill. Odie and Amanda near the station — also fantastic, and my main source of necklace-based gifts. Sugarmomma sources quirky and cool stuff, and O&A design and make it themselves. Peacocks, H&B… I wonder what the next chain will be to cross the SE5 border. Come on, Foyles!
I like Basic because they sell refills for Ecover detergents, which means I don’t have to keep buying new plastic bottles. I don’t like the free walk-in Tarot readings they have; I don’t know why healthy / ecological living has to be associated with mumbo jumbo.
In the interest of supporting independent business I tried the butcher in Camberwell out the other day and when I asked what type of steak they had was promptly told Beef. When I asked what type of beef steak the man behind the counter very nastily started saying “cow love, you know cow MOO MOO Cow!”
Now maybe I shouldn’t have assumed they had a wide variety of steak but I certainly didn’t expect to get Moo’d at in such a derogatory way. I promptly removed myself and my children from the shop and will never go back again.
I didn’t even know we had a butcher. Which one? Not that cheap place by the junction on Camberwell Green?
That place seems to sell “the disappeared” or postman’s legs at the very least.
Heave a sigh of relief that, when you run out of it, you can still get tincture of mhyrr at Baldwin’s. And Sarsaparilla when you need it. And other stuff too esoteric to even mention.
Anyone know what tincture of myhrr is good for?
Christine’s Meat and Fish, I cannot help it, makes me SHUDDER if I look at the display for more than a moment. Same as Noodels City buffet. Christine’s has another shop at the udder end of Coldharbour Lane in what was the pub that was Living Room. I feel a bit sick even typing it. Still I’d be surprised if someone in that shop said Moo to a goose.
Whoever the Moo butcher is should be reported to someone — like to us on this blog — so we can boycott them and feel self satisfied by not going there.
There is still time to get your objections in about God at Gala.
Send an email to:
ATTN: Susannah Pettit — Planning Applications 10/AP/1875/ & 10/AP/1879
planning.applications@southwark.gov.uk
Just say you object most strongly to a change of use which will permanently remove a valuable amenity to the community from use by the community and that you believe it should continue to be used for entertainment for the wider population of SE5 who have virtually no amenities available to them now the bingo has gone…
Or something like that.
There’s a much more comprehensive and more better template here: http://bit.ly/bOlFhQ
The porkers are on the menu tomorrow at S&D by the way. Enterprise and Punch lovingly hand reared in woodland in Sussex.
Forgive me if this has been noted before, but –
Noodels City is now called Noodles City.
The Vietnamese restaurant on Camberwell Church St has been renamed Van Hing, to lull us into a false sense of security.
The cheapest Coronas in Camberwell can be bought at Camberwell Daily on Camberwell New Road. Friendly service in there also.
Mark
“tincture of myhrr”
I believe is an early form of toothpaste which also helps reduce gingevitis…
Very sad about Christine’s Meat and Fish…Can’t help thinking how great that place would have been if they had just kept the old Kennedy’s shopfront and fittings and given them a little TLC and lick of paint…
Maybe the tincture of myhrr would have got those old cream and green tiles gleaming
A great shame
Um, I know this is going to sound pretentious, but it’s actually “myrrh”.
M — y — r — r — h.
Myrrh.
Say it again, y’all.
Remember it for Scrabble.
Tincture of OOPS! Eusoright. Plus dab it on a mouth ulcer and it’ll be gone within 24 hours.
Magic stuff. VERY bitter.
Incidentally, I’ve been meaning to say/propose this for ages but it keeps passing me by, was just reminded by this http://bit.ly/abKaB2 pic.
On New Church Road, between Edmund Street and Southampton way, the mysteriously undemolished section at the back of the Elmington estate.
Can anyone tell how this came to pass? Call me cynical but it looks to me like hard evidence an ill conceived very expensive grand plan gone horribly wrong. It couldn’t be the Council ran out of money in the middle of a dabbling in a bit of amateurish social engineering? A divisive monumental cock up to a community? Something like that? Just maybe?
Seriously I think the remaining buildings should be listed and turned into a surreal monument to the stupidity and incompetence of our times.
Done properly it could be a nationally sought out bit of urban culture circuit architecture/sculpture with an impact on a par with Rachel Whiteread’s cast of the inside of a House http://bit.ly/6N5Eoo in Hackney which, ironically in this context, was knocked down when it should have stayed.
If anything the ten boxes facing toward Addington Square, which is what the flats plainly are, once given a careful tidy up treatment would look fantastic. Majestic even. And if the space around them is treated to do them justice as a monument worth visiting, will create an immediately more imposing and impressive message than Whiteread’s work. It would be all over the press and people, tv crews and so on, would come from all over the world to see it.
Get something like that done and it might be impetus to get the rest of the area kick started.
That large area of wasteground behind the somewhat penetrable boarding of Edmund Street has been an excellent location for the situationist over recent years.
The flats and their “wasteland sports ground” have offered facilities for BMXing, distant-country-themed, dirt-pitch football, photography (a sole sunflower growing out of the rubble, hence — ) philosophy, art (the torn wallpaper of the box flats has provided subject matter for MA printmakers at the art college seeking urban detritus images) and one evening recently, a Spanish guitar, propped against a giant rubbish skip and needing major structural work.
The guitar was made some years ago in the old East Germany from unter den Linden wood and the like and is — uncannilily and eerily — identical to that owned by Pete, the award-winning carpenter well known round these parts for his superb work, now resident in Somerset.
http://www.whyknotwood.com
And who better to fix the instrument than the holzernwizard himself, vastly overqualified for the task — but one would suremost want to play the same-self wooden guitar owned by the mastercarpenter, would one not, yes? Yes! A crippled instrument salvaged from the bombsite! — now doubly a bombsite!! — a wasteland first created by the Flugelwaffe in 1943 and now yet once more again the ghostly outlines of the old Victorian strasses strafed — this time by Southwark and its cheerily heavy-handed, steel-ball-wielding contractors with their flame-red hair and faces.
So. The guitar is now fixed, fettled and finessed by the timbermaster himself and once again the lindenfowl and volkswgenvogel sing of yearning, zeppelin-bosomed maids and doomed poets, composers and philosophers eternally doomed to be doomed, but still singing about it in the hooty tenor of the tinkly, rheinmaidenhair, tingly-tangly strings of the grey-clad-comrade-built lute.
Yet the resourceful cockney bombsite urchin has the Larstlarf!
That area is also a popular filming location; it was used in a couple of episodes of Ashes To Ashes.
@peter: that should read ‘the absolutely brilliant’ashes to ashes”?
@gay camberwell: disagree about chains being a good thing as they may be employing local people but that’s as far as any one can make any claims to ‘localism’. am really exhausted today so brain’s a bit muddled but ultimately, any one ‘shop’ space taken by a chain is in theory one less local shop space. or local community space. or local art/culture space. x
By the way..
Is all that Whey Protein that Holland and Barrett sell infused with powdered penal glands from racing horses that sadly needed to be shot?
Hello Camberwell comrades I would like to draw you attention to a new book I have written on cycling routes in the capital called Where to Ride – London. We are having a book launch in town on Tuesday so do come along if you fancy.. please find details on the website http://www.wheretoridelondon.co.uk.. Alternatively if you just want to go right ahead and buy the thing it will soon be available at Review, Peckham – or on Amazon. Please pass on to friends and family…. — End of shallow plug — …. thanks for reading.
NickW
Looks interesating. Route 26 is a good running route too.
Do you know incidentally whether cyclists can now use the southbank path between Tower Bridge and Blackfriars? I thought cycling had been banned by LB Southwark, but this morning the thing was awash with cyclists.
Hi Florian,
Thanks. That section of the Thames path is not a cycle route but cyclists aren’t prohibited either. Most cyclist would choose not to take it as it has so many walkers and it is slow going — its much quicker to use one road back from the river which only has v. light traffic and is designated a cycle route. I think that this morning there were probably lots more people on bikes, trying to avoid this evenings tube strike . Many of them probably don’t often cycle so don’t know to take the road behind.
Ah, yes — I think you’ve nailed it. Agree the parallel route is better for bikes.
Talking of Blue Plaques (or was that the other thread?) Michael Faraday has a whole school named after him off Albany Road.
I see they nearly finished the rebuild. The same architect who did Peckham Library. A worthwhile investment I’d say.
That’s a great stretch of the river. Incredibly busy these days.
Good to see how all the community activism over the years has helped the area grow without being entirely over run by the steel & glass corporate developers.
There’s a public consultation underway to decide if cycling will be allowed on that part of the South Bank in future, so if you feel strongly about it you should make your views known.
I quite like to cycle there, but it’s usually so busy that it’s rarely possible.
Nick Woodford is dead right that it’s better to use the road inland on that stretch between Blackfriars and Waterloo — the walkway is too complicated and it’s not right to bother the walkers — they are people too, even if they just have legs.
So many cyclists are airheads.
Looks like a genuinely useful book, Nick, good choice of rides. Do you remember “Richard’s Bicycle Book”? That had in it really practical stuff but better still, the philosophy of attitude or the attitude of the freewheeling philosophy that makes cycling so liberating — horrible cliche word that, but true here.
Trains are great.
The trip to Sevenoaks from Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye is literally a trip — the Tolkienian hills of the North Downs, the Stepford paradise of the town, the dreaminess of Knole Park and the venereal bliss of the house where Vita and Virginia enjoyed each other. Surely this is in Gay Camberwell’s rough guide destinations?
We are going to try St Albans and Bedford next, going the other way, northwards. Offbeat places that make Camberwell worth living in for the compare & contrast.
@Gabe Allsop is the Peckham library architects. Dandruff used to figure high on the back of Will.
We’ve been lobbying Southwark Council to make the temporary ping pong table on Camberwell Green (due to be removed very soon) a permanent feature, as it’s so popular with locals and a fantastic free, healthy pastime that’s inclusive and open to all. The table is usually very busy, and when we’ve played on it, we’ve instantly bonded with random locals. It looks as though we may have been successful! Currently there are TWO ping pong tables on Camberwell Green (though I suspect they plan to remove the original one at some point as it’s bound for the next ‘Ping’ event in another city I believe).
Peter
Off topic, but there is another Warwick [Gardens] Wingding coming up soon — Saturday 25 September. Bigger, better — with surprise guest(tbc), beer/comedy tent, chemical toliets etc
You very kindly let me put a short piece up on your blog last time promoting the thing. Could we (the Friends of Warwick Gardens) do the same again? cheers.
There’s a Ping Pong table in Warwick Gardens, for those of a more Peckhamy disposition.
Excellent.
Let’s have a massive game of round the table.
There should be Ping Pong Party Parks all over London.
Please could someone start a campaign?
I was at the Barbican last weekend and saw a man playing ping pong against his wife/girlfriend; he was taking it very seriously, leaping and grunting and smashing shots past her. He was very comical.
@everyone: wiffwaff should indeed be taken seriously.
on an even more serious note, let’s have a tournament on the green this saturday? (it’s the only saturday i have left free) or sunday?
2pm?
and also where can i get the balls and pads and tings?
You can imagine them playing wiff waff on the Titanic with cigar box lids and champagne cork balls.
The ping pong tables are a government scheme for the unemployed.
A Camberwell teenager shot dead in North Peckham:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23875626-two-quizzed-as-talented-teenage-footballer-is-shot-dead-in-street.do
It was two days short of the three year anniversary of the shooting of Moses Ssendawula just 100 metres or so away.
Mindless, hopeless. Pearse St. Right in the middle of N Peckham near Burgess Pk.
Del Boy might have started a joky sort of bad image, but it’s really become a media shorthand for worthless ghetto hasn’t it — Peckham. But then so’s ‘South London’. The term’s a running gag and a byword for crime and danger for too many Londoners.
Living in the area, I still feel that it’s pretty safe. On streets like Pearse Street there are always kids playing outside. I think it was just bad luck that the earlier motorbike accident attracted some bad’uns into what is now a fairly quiet family area.
Perhaps I’m wrong though. If I was a black teenager I might well have a totally different perspective on the area. And perhaps I should be glad that I am rubbish at football as it’s a skill that seems to attract trouble round here.
Black teenagers throughout the whole of Greater London are all at risk from black gangs. They cannot travel freely from one area to another, as though this were South Africa. Many are enslaved into things they may not ultimately want to be involved in at all. They are postcode targeted, and further targeted within the postcode, that’s how micro-tribal and parochial it is. It is as though black people are not considered to be people at all by the gangs, but something else.
To think that what black Brits have built up since 1945 is being undermined by a bunch of jewellery-clad narcissists — and that’s just the girls — makes the blood boil.
Brixton is horrible. Harlem was never like that.
I am up for some Sunday Afternoon wiff waff.
Bring it on!
WIll it be awganic wiff waff though?
@monkeycat: yipee
xxx
@markd: oh it’ll be purest awganic event you ever beheld
It’s quite rare that I learn something about Camberwell from my students (being that they are mostly in the UK from China for the first time, have fairly rudimentary levels of English, spend their lives up in Hendon studying at Middlesex Uni, and have barely understand the concept of the West End let alone south of the river and Camberwell, but… occasionally, you learn something new.
For example, there used to be a Marmite factory on Camberwell Green or nearabouts.
Cue everyone saying, yeah, knew that already!
I’m pretty sure someone pointed out a building toward the Denmark Road end of Warner Road as being a Marmite factory on an old map but my memory’s rubbish.
It would seem likely, since it’s made from what I imagine to be unspeakably vile gunk byproducts of brewing, that a Marmite production plant would be built next to a brewery, next to a railway. Was there a brewery in Warner Road?
I thought it was Bovril not Marmite that was made in Camberwell…
Maybe both?
From my recollection of reading I’m fairly sure it was marmite — opened early 20th century near to the Green where I believe there used to be a brewery too.
It seems that it moved to Vauxhall (possibly as a result of second world war bombing) / there was another factory in Vauxhall — the Westminster Business Centre on Durham St says it is a former Marmite factory http://www.workspacegroup.co.uk/london-commercial-property/offices/south-east-london/westminster-business-square/
It’s official!
Just heard on LBC that Boris will run again in the next Mayoral elections.
Against who?
And I’ve just heard that Jazz At The Crypt has been kicked out of the crypt! Can anyone confirm that?
@Peter.
The latest weekly newsletter from Jazzlive states that they have been sacked from the Crypt with only a week’s notice, so it is, apparently, true I’m afraid. A real shame as it is such a wonderful venue for a jazz club.
Got an email today saying that Jazz at the Crypt has been ejected from its venue after 15 years with one week’s notice… (your name is actually mentioned here Mark) Shame as it was always packed out and was a pretty legendary night.
Gotta say, aint lived in Camberwell for a year now, but that still sucks. That was one of the reasons I’d return to SE5 of an evening, outside of solely visiting friends. They are moving to La Petit Parisien on Sundays but still, quite sad.
I’m subscribed to the newsletter, but haven’t received the latest one yet. Anyway, that is a damn shame, and somewhat ridiculous; surely that was a good earner for the church?
…and a blow for the area as Jazzlive’s interesting programming attracted loads of people to Camberwell from all over London that would not otherwise know of its delights. Such a shame to lose one of London’s best live music experiences.
I thought Mark now had something to do with managing the Crypt? And as for moving to PP, the jazz nights on Sundays have been going for a while, so it won’t be a replacement. What rotten news. Jazz at the Crypt was one of Camberwell’s best events.
Oh Mark you nasty person you. Evicting Jazz in the Crypt from a house of God!
I had kind of assumed that they had gone ages ago when Mark took over. It’s not as if this is a complete surprise. Shame that it seems to be so acrimonious.
Tom
Could someone forward a copy of the email to me at peter@camberwellonline.co.uk? Thanks.Got it now; cheers.Where to start? Camberwell’s rumour mill, as ever, doesn’t take long to get grinding the speculative spice. Some Kind of Blue Ltd, a company set up to run the venue, took over management of the crypt in July 2010 following Les Alden’s official retirement (Les is one of the founders) which he announced in early 2009 and, as many people clearly have not noticed:
JAZZ IS STILL BEING PLAYED EVERY FRIDAY AT THE CRYPT
Here’s this month’s line up of marvellous musicianship: http://bit.ly/cuCKxm and here is the website: http://www.camberwellcrypt.com where you can sign up to our email invitation list.
Live Jazz is central to the business going on and that is not going to change. The Crypt is being generally cleaned up, many improvements are being made to the operation and the venue is being made fit for purpose.
Don’t miss tonight’s fantastic combination of two of the UK’s best jazz guitarists. £7 on the door or you can book via the link above. The drinks list is expanded and the food is as good as ever. Look forward to seeing you there!
Roz and I cycled to Hampton Court Palace last weekend and are trying to come up with a similarly scenic yet flat ride from SE5 this weekend — any thoughts?
I would suggest Richmond Park, although there is somewhat of a hill on the way back.
Other trips we’ve done:
* Crystal Palace via The Horniman
* Cycle to Liverpool Street, train to Epping Forest
* Greenwich
we went east and east and east by the river one summer a few years back, beyond plumstead and it was very interesting although it got very smelly as there’s the sewage works somewhere
Try the Wandle Way. It follows the River Wandle from the Thames at Wandsworth, via Merton to Croydon. You can get the train from Croydon back to East Dulwich.
The Wandle Way/Trail looks good.
http://www.merton.gov.uk/wandle_trail-3.pdf
It ends (or starts) at East Croydon train station which conveniently is on London Cycle Route 23 bringing you straight back to Camberwell with possible stops at Syndenham Hill Wood/Dulwich Wood and Dulwich Park.
Democracy in Acton. This is taken from a petition in support of change of use of the former cinema on Camberwell Road. I have not altered the grammar or spelling. Paragraph 2 is particularly porky pie like but it all makes fascinating reading:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/houseofpraisecamberwell/
Say Yes To The House Of Praise Change of Use of the Old Gala Bingo
The Petition
The House of Praise has recently acquired the former Gala Bingo Hall in Camberwell. The owners of the former Bingo could not continue to sustatin the busienss and offered the building for sale. The House of Praise, identified a unique of opportunity of utilising its long and varied experience in community service in impacting the community better than ever and keeping the building alive and useful for the community.
The House of Praise has consulted far and wide with local residents and several groups in the community in order to ensure that the Gala Bingo, though would primarily be a worship centre but would also be used to make a major impact on the community, esspecially with programmes targeted towards youths, elderly and the less privilegded.
The House Of Praise have already started getting involved in Community activities in the area and would become a hub of goodness if and when the permission is fully granted.
Support this good cause, so the former Bingo will be able to fulfil its potential as House of Prasie intend to make it available for use by the community for programmes, seminars, receptions and socially beneficial activities.
We count on your support.
WELL. I WOULDN’T COUNT ON THE SUPPORT OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN SE5 IF I WERE YOU.
They may have consulted far and wide with the RCCG’s membership across several continents (judging by their facebook group), but that’s the problem: they haven’t consulted locally or intensively.
Almost none of the signatories give their location, which tells us all we need to know about this particular petition
Think it worth publishing a link to this interesting list of traits characterising the behaviour and actions of terrorist groups:
http://www.xenu-directory.net/opinions/pattinson20060302.html
only a day and a half to send in your objections — hundreds of comments in support of the place of worship have been published on the council’s website (and there is a number of se5 signatories, couldn’t trawl through the nine documents)
http://planningonline.southwarksites.com/planningonline2/AcolNetCGI.exe?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPSESSION=%7B%5B%2A%211D1A020B050304731D3C3D31617C041E28360020373B2D3A033A2131681B1102001216030D02040A06016F691120283F3A3606243629243A06176F767479717A76657777007E6D1D2A20212C2B20080A7261607674777778796B6073%21%2A%5D%7D
x
Wonder will never end! The Church and the Mosque are now ganging up against Camberwellians…No way. Am ready to demonstrate. Anyone knows when the hearing is due?
no but the sooner the better, eh? it’s really inconvenient when people disagree with their local government and/or politicians, isn’t it
Thanks. Just got the hint that the church’s application has been denied !!! Am so happy. Mr Leighton let’s party. You lost the election but you won the church fighting the weak and wounded and the Blacks. Shame on you
I am happy James and other never won the election.
They seems to me like selfish bunch of individuals who seek after their own interest only at the expense of others. An example is the bingo hall, a friend of mine who runs a young group have gone to make enquiry about hiring the place; all arrangement is in place to hire. It is open the public.
Your parties will not be for long. I can’t imagine people not speak about the community.
Tom poke with Gbenga Odesola facilitaor of meetings between House of praise and community about using Former Bingo Hall for the photographic show; several meetings were arranged between both. But Tom never showed up. I find it disappointing to read that Tom is claiming he was never consulted. This is part of the selfish acts this “so called SE5 Forum” are commiting.We can speak for ourselves and do not need bunch of unemployed people depending on the taxes i contribute.
Tom and your so called group declare your occupations.
You all claimed you were not consulted; where did the minutes pasted on republic of southwark comes from. You are all bunch of liars.
John Friar another elction is fast approaching; the likes of Tom will not secure your seat for you. You represent the whole constituency and not Tom & Group alone. I will be standing against you in the next election; the same churches you are fighting against will bring about your downfall.
@James Collins: Are you aware of the concept of Christian charity? You don’t seem to be showing any. ‘Love thy neighbour as thyself’ — Leviticus 19:18.
At the risk of “feeding the trolls”:
@ James Collins.
1: Gbenga called to ask me to do some work for him but I was unable to meet at the time. At no stage did he ever mention that it was in any way connected to the Bingo hall.
2: One meeting (paraded as several meetings in the planning application) does not a consultation of the community make.
3. I have tried to meet the Pastor on several occasions, and every time, he cancelled or did not turn up.
Having said that, I am still interested in speaking to him. If he really is interested in allowing community access then let us arrange it.