The Camberwell Ghost Map

Hello everyone, it’s Peter again. I’m taking a quick break from my self‐imposed hiatus (I’m writing a book, actually; a sort of technical manual, nothing to do with Camberwell) to show off a very early prototype of something I had the idea for a long time ago:

The Camberwell Ghost Map.

It isn’t a map of haunted houses, it’s a map of things that no longer exist. As I said, this is in a very early stage of development — more a proof of concept than anything else — so mostly the only data it contains is information on vanished cinemas and train stations.

Update: Added some pubs, thanks to Ewan‐M. Many more to come.

Just wanted to get everyone’s feedback on it, and to see if anyone else fancies getting involved.

As for news, I’m still updating the Twitter feed @camberwellblog regularly — you can see the latest updates on the right‐hand side of this page. I’m also still looking for people to write stuff here. Does no‐one want to write a full review of The Tiger? Food starts this weekend so it’ll be an opportune moment.

Author: Peter

Long-time resident of Camberwell, author of this blog since July 2004.

60 thoughts on “The Camberwell Ghost Map”

  1. Love this..its gonna run .…
    !.Charlie Chaplain born here
    2.Michael Caine lived here
    3 Site of Camber Well
    4.Camberwell Carrot born here
    5.Oriental Palace of Varieties
    6 Boris Karloff born here
    Theres a start.…..
    I am going to be The Secret Drinker.this weekend,so I will post my review of food at The Tiger soon..
    Have a fun Friday

  2. Hi everyone, I am a longtime lurker on this website, and find it heartening that so many people here are so committed to the local area. For one particular reason, which I’ll come to in a moment, I have finally felt moved to come out of the shadows and become a post‐er (is that the correct terminology?!?)

    I have lived in Camberwell all my life and teach at one of the local schools. LIke everyone else posting here, I am continually frustrated by Camberwell and its unrealised potential. At the same time I can’t imagine living anywhere else.

    Which brings me to why I am posting. I viewed with interest the link on a recent discussion which directed me to a website on political policies. (I came out as LIBDEM/ Green).

    Now, I’m a politics sceptic — I am generally suspicious of all politicians and despise the inherent weaknesses in our political system. I sort of think Guy Fawkes had the right idea, really… I particularly despise the way the field I work in, education, is used as a political football for political parties’ short‐term gain, rather than the long term benefits of young people.

    Working in education, I see every day the huge potential of many of our young people, and how motivated many of them are, despite extremely adverse personal or familial circumstances. It frustrates me that so many local schools are too poorly run, managed or structured in order to take advantage of this potential.

    Through my job I have met many times Columba Blango, the LIbDem candidate in the forthcoming general election for Camberwell and Peckham. I know first‐hand how committed he is to this area and making improvements.

    No, this isn’t a party political broadcast. But it is something I feel passionate about. I have voted Libdem in the past, Labour (for Ken Livingstone only) and Green. I am a member of no political organisation other than “no to ID”, but I implore everyone to get rid of Harriet Harman in the forthcoming election and get a real local in Mr Blango to represent us.

    In 34 years I have never seen, met or encountered Ms Harman anywhere in this area. She has had her chance to improve things for Camberwell/ Peckham and little has improved.

    I haven’t seen any real debate on this site about how a change of MP here might change things, and would be interested in others’ views on this. Whether you agree or disagree with me…

    Ok rant over…

    On another note, I love the ghost map and the banter / passion on this site and intend to become a proper poster from now on.

    So, er, hello!

  3. Hello daltonator, and welcome; I hope this is the first of many comments from you.

    I think there is often a tendency to discuss politics here because it’s so potentially divisive; but with the elections coming up, it’s probably inescapable.

    For my part I’ve arrived at the conclusion that the two‐party system is holding back the level of political discourse in this country; instead of ‘Who best represents me?’, the thinking is too often ‘Don’t vote LibDem because the Tories might get in!’, or ‘A vote for anyone who’s unlikely to win is a wasted vote’.

    I think — and this is partly why I posted the link that triggered your comment — that it is time for everyone to forget about parties, and vote on policies. Don’t think of yourself as ‘a Green/Labour/LibDem/Tory voter’, just vote with your conscience.

    I think people should use Vote For Policies to guide themselves, and join Democracy Club to feel engaged, and look at their MP’s record to see if they’re really representing your interests.

  4. Peter, everything you say makes perfect sense.

    Vote for policies is a website that I agree will help clarify people’s thinking and hopefully force a change in thinking. It would be great (albeit utterly impractical from an html perspective!) to have a local version to compare what our forthcoming candidates say about local issues/ the local area.

    I would add that I don’t feel that a change in government between any of the available ‘two’ (three?) options would substantively change my daily life one way or another, but a decent local MP would. For example, Simon Hughes in the ‘other half’ of Southwark has achieved far more on behalf of local people than I feel Harman has, is far more visible and far more active at a local level — I’ve met him about ten times at local events / initiatives and I don’t even live in his constituency! That’s why he continues to win elections in what was previously a Labour area. People vote for him, not for the Libdems.

    I hope none of my comments cause the type of division or bitterness that I agree often ensues in such discussions; sensible and constructive debate is the order of the day, but I do feel with the general election approaching issues relating to the Camberwell/Peckham constituency are crucial.

    If anyone out there has evidence of anything Harman has done ‘for us’ I’d be interested to hear it and possibly rethink my views!

  5. Another long time lurker, I’ve lived here for over 9 years now..

    Great work on the site, and some brilliant comment (in the main) recently. I hope that the political slant will enthuse people.. as long as it doesn’t scare them away..

    Party political aside, I signed up to the Save the Bingo Hall site and group and sent through various edited letters, I had personal replies from Harriet H and two councillors (one blue, one red) but nowt from the rest of them…

    GG
    http://www.grumblinggourmet.com

  6. Peter — Brilliant Idea regarding the ghost map…I will try and contribute any suggestions that I know…

    GG and Daltonator

    Great that you have finally posted on this excellent blog…

    Now that you’re interested maybe you would also like to visit Camberwell Village Hall regarding our plans for a secular community facility in Camberwell?

    http://www.CamberwellVillageHall.com

    “Cinema for Camberwell Green” — Facebook Page

    Also http://www.se5forum.org

    Kind Regards!

  7. To be blunt this is one of the safest seats for Labour around — there is absolutely no chance of the Lib Dems ever winning Camberwell and Peckham constituency. Harriet Harman had something like 65% of the votes here last time. So it is pointless to trumpet any other candidates — if we want to bring about change we need to engage with Harman and forget the Lib Dems — they are irrelevant. To be honest I dont think things would be any different if we were represented by a Lib Dem or Tory MP — it is the council that has more day to day impact on life in Camberwell and we seem to not be of concern to the Lib Dem administration on Southwark who care about bermondsey, bankside and dulwich where the seats are marginal.

  8. Mumu

    Spot On

    This is a seat that Labour can win with a cigar in mouth and brandy in hand 😀

    It has always been predominantly Labour with an element of LibDem which decreases or increases (currently the latter, but still not enough to make a dent in the overall majority)

    I’m not sure what Harriet or Tessa think about Labour’s record in Southwark over the past 40+ years (I’m from a working class family who traditionally voted Labour — resident 30 years) but there is undeniable evidence that the legacy we have been left with could have been far,far better than it is now — maybe we are entitled to think that such a safe Labour stronghold should have delivered a better environment (than currently exists) for us all? My heart wants to be Labour but my head disagrees 🙁

    I have only ever voted LibDem (mainly due to Simon Hughes — my outstanding M.P whilst living in N Southwark & Bermondsey) and now that I live in Herne Hill Ward, I vote Green — because I find myself increasingly agreeing with what they propose — their social responsibility policy surpass Labour in many respects (Who would have of thought it?)

  9. Sorry, Mumu, but I completely disagree with you; not that this is a Labour safe seat, because it obviously is, but on the idea that this somehow means we shouldn’t consider other candidates.

    First, because I think that’s a terrible concept; that we should not vote against someone because it would be somehow wasted. As I said before, I think everyone should vote according to policy; if you agree with Labour you should vote Labour, but you shouldn’t vote for them out of some notion of either loyalty or because you want to back a winner.

    Second, because I think that if Ms. Harman suddenly saw her majority substantially cut, she would be much more inclined to engage with the community* than if she felt that things were fine and didn’t need looking after.

    * Not that I’m saying she doesn’t engage, just that if that’s your opinion of her, that’s something you should consider.

  10. i was, predictably, getting very wound up (in my head) so if the following is a bit unwound or garbled, forgive me!
    i have massive concerns about ‘engaging with someone’ whose job (as the ‘elected representative’) it is to engage with me to begin with. i have never seen harriet harman anywhere else but in photos, never on camberwell green, never at local events, let alone community council meetings.
    the one instance of ‘engagement’ i remember was a letter asking for our support for yet more police (as more police are an answer to… diminishing civil liberties?).
    some peckham people have possibly seen her & the bodyguards was it last year?
    this is far from being just a harriet harman problem, it may be that community disengagement comes with the politicians’ territory.
    i also really don’t understand how anyone who got bare majority of the votes of the minority who voted can claim to be representing anything. again, not an isolated case, but rather a nation‐wide one, as the voting turnout the last time round was very low.
    end of part one of le rant.

  11. what harry harman has or has not done for her constituency misses the point in my opine. for camberwell some rabble rousing — to get people to exercise their option to vote as they see fit, voting for/against policy: for/against personality is not the issue at this late stage but simply going and voting and engaging with a flawed system.
    this will allow for a longer term of electoral reform (two party politics is a joke) and education on government.
    labour displayed their social responsibility over the heathrow judgement, their only concern is economy — not the environment, not the views of the electorate and the money will be better spent on business start ups and low interst loans for existing small businesses

    whichever party one votes for there will always be a government
    j p sartre

  12. I think the government, whoever it is, should make everyone learn to play the ukulele.

    a, it’s hard to feel depressed about anything when you are singing the bare necessities with a uke.

    b, it’s hard to take anyone seriously when they are playing a uke.

    ergo: no more stress and fighting.

  13. I could have expressed myself better in my post above — what I was trying to convey was that its pointless to sit around talking (fantasising?) about the situation in an ideal world, we as Camberwell people need to engage with the existing powers that be if we want to change this world: this means Harriet Harman and Southwark Council whatever political colour the administration is post 6 May.

    And as for arguments about electoral legitimacy: we have a flawed system yes but the only way we will change it is by engaging with the existing system. Pragmatism not idealism!

    I was not saying dont vote for who you consider to be the best candidate but we need to recognise the situation on the ground: Labour will be in power in Camberwell at the Parliamentary level and probably local level too.

    And as for Harriet Harman not engaging — have you told her about what you’re doing/proposing ? Have you contacted her office for advice on the best way to go about things? Have you asked her why she is apparently ignoring Camberwell?

    In an ideal world of course politicians would know about and engage with all local people but realistically unless we develop relationships/ inform them they are not going to know whats happening. If you look at the casework of your average inner city MP the vast majority of it will be in dealing with housing and immigration problems of constituents; a key part of achieving change is engaging to get Camberwell to the top of the agenda. We need to show Harman that Camberwell matters.

  14. If anyone fancies glee like fun today, my choir, the pop‐up choir, are singing at the sun and doves. Our original venue got closed down so mark kindly let us go to the sun and doves. Other acoustic bods start about 3 and it will all finish about 4.30–5ish.
    See you there.
    Tom

  15. Mumu is spot on with the assessment of the local authorities’ impact here.

    A lot of good points all round up there. Political Engagement. If politicians do not engage effectively we have to engage them effectively or else nothing will change.

    As it happens I’ve seen Harriet Harman round Camberwell a lot over fifteen years. But that’s probably just by chance. Perhaps I am a very tolerant person, I find her to be honest and very hard working and like her. Never been sure of the impact of her tenure on the Camberwell part of her constituency though, and really don’t know enough about Peckham to say what her impact has been there. BUT just think how seriously largely deprived the whole of this area is and go figure out how to change that after decades of appalling post war mismanagement of mass planning and social housing policy. It’s damned difficult I wouldn’t want to do it. Well… actually.

    Anyway strategic voting might be useful but how to plan it, how to coordinate it and how to be sure of the outcome is muddy. Party Politics are muddy for communities. I don’t think we’re served at all well by the way our democracy is set up. The UK has the results of generations of bad politics to clear up from its central nervous system. Starting with the class system would begin to make a scratch at the surface. It the Tories get in they will just make the legacy of it all even worse

    We really need radical change — Green Party might bring that but how to get them into power? If I were in charge of Britain I’d be looking to make a coalition between Labour Lib Dems and Green parties at national level irrespective of their respective majorities at the general election. That would go down well.

    The reason Camberwell gets such a raw deal, in the end, is because its citizens are not vocal enough and do not demand enough of politicians whether at borough or constituency level. And this is because they all have different constituencies among themselves. This has to change before Camberwell will change substantially.

    There are a lot of good signs popping up around at the moment. SE5 Forum
    has finally managed to break into Lambeth’s understanding that from Loughborough Junction down Coldharbour Lane, and the land either side all the way down to Camberwell, is not actually part of Brixton.

    Tessa Jowell coming in to SE5 around the Lambeth Herne Hill ward side is a very good thing here community liaison people are on the ball and she engages well.

    There has been a bit of small scale private commercial activity sparking up in SE5 recently which is encouraging for base regeneration — it will encourage more entrepreneurial business development in the area.

    But frankly the area is still a dreadful shithole — look around you — this is what lots of people outside Camberwell think without emotional baggage. And they aren’t wrong.

    WE must force cross borough boundary talks, we must force joined up thinking about Camberwell to happen in our local authorities because they sure as hell aren’t going to be changing forty years of bad habit unless we make them.

    You lot should all join SE5 Forum and encourage everyone you know to join too (instead of complaining about how little it’s done for you), you should offer small amounts of time and lots of ideas and some of your experience and ideas and energy into the mix and BOY will you see a difference be made in Camberwell.

    This is what the forum is constituted to so — to be representative of the area and to kick some ass. It’s been a long time getting here but it’s been getting stronger and stronger recently. WHY? Because some of you people out there have been getting involved like I suggest you all should — and they / you / have been making a great contribution.

    Work can be spread around in manageable chunks instead of everything being done by three or four people working themselves into the ground and the results are fantastic.

  16. TTotally OT guys but does anyone know where i can get a SPRAY TAN in Camberwell? I am sick of trecking to Clapham for a bit of bottled sunshine. thanks

  17. @ Monkeycat: Shame about the other pub closing. But thanks to Tom for coming to us, it was great to have the singing in the bar all impromptu like that. And a great atmosphere. Nice day!

  18. Cool map!

    I got a flyer through about Blango. Seems OK. Hard to tell, isn’t it.

    That said, I can’t stand Harperson either and this being one of the safest Labour seats lessens the excitement about the upcoming election. I’ll still vote of course. It’s important to do so.

    Also notice how wor Harriet, a noisy champion of positive discrimination, went so so quiet when her union hubby got a safe seat in Brum, despite Labour’s executive council supporting all‐women shortlists. Funny that.

    Anyway pollsters, here’s some info below on our ward. It’s what political analysts see. Even I found some of the stats quite surprising, I have to say. Can’t vouch for the accuracy.

  19. The constituency of Camberwell and Peckham is an inner city seat in south London. Compact in its layout — this is amongst the ten most dense and tightly packed seats in the country. Ahead of the 1997 election, the more upmarket Camberwell was added to the title of the seat, but boundary changes elsewhere added some areas of greater social deprivation, increasing Labour’s hold on the constituency. One of the few constituencies in the UK in which white voters are in the minority — some 39.2% of the population in Camberwell and Peckham are black — the highest anywhere in the United Kingdom.

    Areas of the constituency are beset by crime, and the seat includes the Liddle council estate, one of the poorest parts of London’s poorest borough, Southwark. In November 2000 10‐year old Damilola Taylor was murdered on an estate in the constituency, leading to a national outcry. Some 54.3% of the housing stock is council housing — the highest anywhere in the UK — whilst at the same time owner occupancy is just 23.1% — the lowest of any constituency in the country. Some 56.3% of households also lack a car — the 14th lowest in the UK.Lone parents account for some 17.5% of all families — the 10th highest in the UK.

    Electoral History:
    2005
    Harman, Harriet (Labour Party) 18933 (65.31%)
    Porter, Richard (Liberal Democrat) 5450 (18.80%)
    Lee, Jessica (Conservative) 2841 (9.80%)
    Ingram, Paul (Green Party) 1172 (4.04%)
    Penhallow, Derek (UK Independence Party) 350 (1.21%)
    Sharkey, Margaret (Socialist Labour Party) 132 (0.46%)
    Kulkarni, Sanjay (Workers Revolutionary Party) 113 (0.39%)

  20. There have actually been some boundary changes since the last election I believe. Notionally, this increases the Lib Dems’ share of the vote, but it’s still a safe Labour seat.

    Safe seats are not eternal though. Local issues can on occasion really shake things up. Hospital closures are an obvious example.

  21. @Peter your comment on voting on policies not parties has merit, logically thinking.

    But will they follow through on the policy?

    And, at base, isn’t this is a tribal, emotional, decision for many (most?) people?

  22. I am, admittedly, not tremendously well informed about local politics, but for the sake of discussion…

    Isn’t Harriet Harmen a big supporter of SureStart? That’s been/is good for the area.

    And her backing for gender‐equality is something I agree with on principle.

  23. @Gabe Too right, and that’s why I say that it’s important that Harriet’s husband should now “pretend” to be a woman in order to take up his safe seat.

    The country is more than ready for a transvestite MP. This’d be a great start.

  24. Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome since I first posted, and very interested to see people’s thoughts on Harman and the election.

    Moving to another subject, and Mark’s post about getting things done.

    I loved his idea (a few weeks back?) about getting invetsment in the sun and doves so it is a sort of local collective pub. I’m even considering investing.

    I used to love Wordsworth bookshop (I even worked there for a while) and have long lamented its absence. Does anyone else fancy starting a second‐hand bookstall, as a prelude to a possible community bookshop? I have loads of old books that I used to routinely take to camberwell charity shops, but a lot of them don’t seem to be charity shop taste.

    I thought of a stall at greenwich market, but costs were prohibitive, and that does camberwell no good.

    Anyone got any ideas for where / how I could get a bookshop or stall started in camberwell? (I know nothing of finance/ rates/ pitches etc but I do know a bit about books…

  25. Thinking further about this — both Harman and the Lib Dem candidate Blango have a record to answer for on Camberwell. We should push them both if we see them on the doorsteps on the neglect that the area has suffered over the past 10 years+.

    Blango needs to tell us what he did for Camberwell as a cabinet member on Southwark council for the past four years (and defend the Lib Dems on Southwark’s record for the past 8 years) and why (to my mind) resources have not been invested in the area but instead diverted to other bits of the borough.

    Harman needs to tell us what she has done at the national level for Camberwell.

    Push them hard — make them answer for their actions!

  26. @Daltonator:

    How about doing a pop‐up shop in one of the empty shops on Camberwell Church Street. I have a good few hundred books that I need to get rid of.

    You may not be there for ever, but it would give you the chance to see if there is the market. Either the old Metro Supermaket (sigh I still miss that place) or the one next to Haart are free and have been for some time.

  27. Kia Blue, I use British Leyland Beige aerosol car spray instead of spray tan. It is suitable for an array of classic vehicles like the Marina, Allegro and Princess, so is available in several below‐the‐arches outlets in SE5 and SE15. It is a sort of generic coffee colour and is therefore better than the liver‐failure orange of spray tan.

    Sometimes I buy a small can of Kia Blue and spray my face with it last thing at night. The partner wakes up in the morning to see me with a blue face — I lie as still as possible. It is ever so funny! The tears, the hysteria, the shock when I stir making deep croaking noises!

    Running in the street — “Zombie! Duppy! Aie!!!”

  28. I was just looking and meaning to pass on but instead I nearly bust a gut reading Dagmar’s hilarious post. It’s difficult to type shaking like this…

    Thanks Dagmar and BOY does my gut need busting.

  29. Hey how about a monthly outdoor booksale type thing (like they have on the Southbank) in the pedestrianised piece of road with the trees in it behind the Morrisons car park — I have never understood why this outside space is not used for community events/ commercial events as with a bit of publicity there are a lot of people passing and lots of rich people on Camberwell Grove/Grove Lane. Ultimately I think that would be a good spot for a farmers market or an outdoor art market but I guess the economic situation is not ideal presently. I guess it would also require Southwark’s sayso before anything could go ahead. Maybe something to put to the Camberwell towncentre manager ? (if there is such a person)

  30. are Dagmar and the white woman of Camberwell related? we must be told.

    we (peoples republic) went to find out more of co‐op workings yesterday, it’s about £50 to set up a co‐op to sell shares. difficult part is the constitution and having share owners having the ability to become directors. ask Liliana, she’s gooderer at english than me.

    using daneville rd/next to car park for a book stall is a great plan. having is once a month with a free shop, local info stall and anything else non‐commercial. camberwell regeneration were planning an arts market there at one time so Katherine Pitt should be a decent contact.

  31. Wren Road would be perfect for a street market and bookstall, were it not itself a car park for local residents who quite understandably need a private vehicle for their weekly supermarket shop.

    The SE5 Forum Business Manifesto contains a blueprint for bringing empty community/retail properties back into use. Ask your candidates such as Wingfield and Dixon‐Fyle whether they support it.

  32. Thanks to everyone for book stall encouragement and ideas. I’m going to look into these ideas. I already have a full‐time job, but as a teacher I have a long summer break and could make use of this to try and get this stall up and running…

    Another location I thought of for an occasional ‘Camberwell market’ is on the section of Daneville road that is closed to traffic next to Somerfield car park. At the moment it is only a cut through for pedestrians, push bikes and pizza delivery mopeds.

    A book stall there on its own would look quite lonely, but maybe there are some other budding stall‐holders out there…

  33. just realised the space i suggested is exactly where mumu already suggested, apologies mumu.

    I really think this is a perfect market location.

  34. The map is great! My mum had many memories of going to the Odeon (junction of Coldharbour Lane and Denmark Hill) and her cousin used to talk nostalgically of some of the other cinemas in Camberwell.

    Would agree with the comments that its the local council that has more impact on Camberwell than the MP — the latter has little or no say on what goes on locally. That said, I’ve found Harriet — yes, I’ve met her more than once — to be an extremely good constituency MP who does well on national lists of effective MPs. I shall go on voting for her and will vote Labour in the council elections; Southwark hasn’t been run so badly as it has by the Lib Dem/Tory coalition as it has for many a long year. (A regular reader of “Rotten Boroughs” in Private Eye would be able to advise anyone of the oh‐too frequent appearances of Southwark in the column; Southwark is up there with the Isle of Wight and Tower Hamlets as an extremely poorly run council.)

    Re Mumu’s idea about using the pedestrianised part of Daneville road — very good, well worth pursuing with Ian Wingfield

  35. I heard that the 99p store on Denmark Hill, formally Woolworths,is now to become Peacocks.
    They don’t seem to be restocking the shelves either.
    Not sure if this has already been mentioned or not.

  36. @Peter, I can confirm Peacocks is scheduled to open a store in Camberwell in July, but I don’t know where. That 99p store was very low on stock when I went in on Monday, but three months seems quite a long time to fit out a store.

    @SouthLondonJohn, You’re certainly very loyal to Labour. Do you by any chance know South Camberwell’s Peter John? If you happen to have any inside information, would you expect Peter John to remain leader of the Labour group following the elections, possibly even becoming leader of the Council if Labour are the largest party? In such a situation, could we expect more attention to be given to Camberwell?

  37. From the article mentioned above

    “Labour says that it would consider joint regeneration and economic development teams which would benefit areas such as the South Bank and Camberwell which are in both boroughs.”

    What’s stopping them work together now? Politics? Can’t see any other reason.

    On a personal level, the thought of having Lambeth style housing repairs fills me with dread. Last week Southwark repairs had someone round next day to repair a broken boiler. Merge facilities?

  38. Off track, but does anyone know the procedure for visiting the emergency dental care service? Co you still need to contact them, or can you just turn up?

  39. Yes that article has been all over Lambeth Labour websites for a week or so — eg http://www.lambethlabour.com/?p=263 or a basic reposting of the article on the local Vassall Labour website http://www.vassallview.com/2010/03/lambeth-to-pioneer-joint-working-with.html

    It potentially is a very good idea as on things like parking, recycling or rubbish collection it seems silly that in Camberwell there is one regime on one side of the road and another on the other side, it would also be good if they could offer joint memberships for things like swimming pools/leisure facilitues.

    Not sure about housing/roads/other major works that councils do — in theory I would have thought that there is scope for working across the borders and economies of scale/sharing of staff could occur but whether you would get these savings in partice and be able to maintain service levels is a different matter.

  40. in theory the idea of joining up services in cross border areas could be good — definitely good for poor residents like us that have to put up with at least two refuse collections a week at 6am! it seems logical to join forces on collection rubbish and sweeping roads whre the border runs down the middle (eg Denmark road) However who would do it — just an observation but livign on the Southwark side of Denmark Road it seems Southwark are a lot better at cleansing than Lambeth. Our neighbours in Lambeth get away with dumping all sorts of rubbish on the streets and around their bins which is not tolerated on our side of the road!

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