Booze and the working class

Southwark Lambeth council are considering introducing a ‘saturation zone’ to Clapham, to limit the number of new bars or clubs — and a similar scheme could be imposed on Camberwell. I would suggest that Camberwell’s problems lie not with the number of bars and clubs, but the number of off-licences, and would welcome a scheme to regulate them. I would also welcome a scheme to stop off-sales outside licensing hours. I would also welcome a scheme to give me millions of pounds.

I’ve changed my route to work now, and cycle past Evelina Mansions on New Church Road. I was always intrigued by the plaque about the “Four Per Cent Industrial Dwellings Company Ltd”, and did a quick search to look up their origins; turns out the company is still in existence, now known as IDS Ltd. They manage over 1,300 properties across London, and were:

established as the Four Per Cent Dwellings Company in 1885 by a group of Jewish philanthropists who hoped to relieve the overcrowding in homes in the East End of London.

No doubt they were originally for workers in the factories along the canal, but now they are pretty exclusive homes, from what I can see.

Finally, I’ve decided I want to join the library in Camberwell again, but I remembered that I didn’t return a book I borrowed 10 years or so ago. Do you think they have a record of that? And how much is 10 years of late fees?

Author: Peter

Long-time resident of Camberwell, author of this blog since July 2004.

125 thoughts on “Booze and the working class”

  1. D‑MAN not Camberwell but have you tried Peckham Farmers Market every Sunday morning in the Square just outside the Library. obviously there are limitations as it is a real farmers market so goods can only be sourced up to 90 (or is it 70?) miles from central London.

  2. On the subject of cars i think they are part of life but Camberwell is an illustration of how anti social and space hungry they can be — i was nearly knocked over on Coldharbour lane the other day when someone thought the best way to park was to mount the pavement at some speed.

    Another interesting thing was that yesterday i went to the launch of some research about providing more play space for children in inner cities. I learnt an interesting fact:

    There are 33 million cars in the UK but only 11 million children.

    and the saddest thing was a quote from a 8 year old when asked what improvements she would like to see in her local park she replied:

    “They should ask us what should happen to this place. Because if it was an adults’ park it would be car park; they love car parks.”

  3. D‑MAN

    Oli Food Centre on Walworth Road supplies most of my fresh vegetable needs. Fresh mint, basil, coriander, oak leaf lettuce, etc.

    For organics, an excellent bio-dynamic farm stall at the Oval on a Saturday ’til 3, which I patronise for root vegetables where the difference in taste is clear.

    On your cars point — the 50mph-ers aren’t doing much to discourage local crime. I’d suggest that if things were taken down to 20mph, you might be right.

  4. In Camberwell I use Cruson; you do get the occasional clunker, but mostly it’s nice and fresh. Can’t make any guarantees on air miles or organic certification, if that’s your thing.

    Mind you, if that is your thing you could get them delivered from Abel & Cole.

    Most of the time, however, I buy from a little shop by Smithfields market, around the corner from London’s best butcher (IMHO).

  5. Good tips. Thanks. Tend to avoid vegetables stood out by a busy roadside.

    Already get Abel & Cole. We eat a lot of veg so often need topping up by the w/end.

    I heard Green Ventures just started back up, so will rejoin them too.

    The great thing about Green Ventures is:
    1) It has an alternative, community, mildly hippy vibe. Cool.
    2) They deliver. By bike! This is for real… they have a trailer.
    3) They do special deals for low-income households. Think they get some kind of regeneration grant.
    4) Seems to have ethical connection to where stuff is sourced, etc.
    5) It’s a non-profit social enterprise (is that good or bad?)

    Peckham Farmer’s market has always seemed a little bedraggled. It’s like trying to import a bit of Islington in Peckham, but not quite pulling it off. Never seems that busy either. I should support it more, I guess.

    Anyone know where you can get organic milk?

  6. Jeez, I can’t believe there is still all this nonsense about cars. There are so so many more things wrong with Camberwell.
    Housing, parenting, education, neglected facilities. Restricting car use or even banishing them all together would make it far far worse because then the likelihood of getting a seat on public transport would be far worse. Or would everyone just cycle? Hmmm

  7. We need more damn cars, not less,we should all go back to leaded fuel and throw the old school burger polystyrene containers out of the window. Stick overpriced organic veg up your arse and your fancy gastro-pubs let’s all go to hell who’s with me? We’re all in inner city Camberwell hell anyway, may as well enjoy it. Nothing is going to change. It’s going to get worse. F- flavour of the month bourgeois green issues.

  8. Biddy biddy biddy what’s up Buk?

    Anyone going to try the Bear again this weekend? I am for sure- now that I know what Onglet is!

    Hermit’s Cave tonight maybe but I’ve got to go to an American Psycho party in Fulham first.

  9. What is an Onglet then? Enlighten us Peasants!!

    I’m going to defect to East Dulwich to try Hoopers if i ever leave work on time today!

    Final couple of words on transport — uncle Ken has given Southwark £5.4 million for transport improvements and some of that is coming Camberwell way!

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/6464.aspx

    and a typical Camberwell story that made me smile — me and the boyfriend were walking home last night at about half midnight when we were acosted by a worried woman who wanted to know if the last 436 had gone — “i think it has” i replied “but don’t worry the 36 is a night bus and it goes more or less the same route” “oh i know that” she said ” but it’s not free like the 436!”

    My other half, who works for TfL, tried to look suitably shocked .. but failed!

  10. I think it’s a good idea to put on free buses between central London and the more impoverished areas of town. Sort of unofficial redistribution..

  11. Very Robin Hood of TfL!!!

    However i remember when i used the 436 a lot to get to and from work it did seem to be the winter park bench for many tramps

  12. Keeps the parks nice.

    Do you still see Squidder Buk?

    I went out for a pint with FoxyAl in Dulwich Village the other night. He moved to Crystal Palace so the Crown and Greyhound is about half way between our two locations.

    I also got an email off Sparty recently. He’s coming round to visit near Christmas. He’s still got his Golden Triangle flat in Brixton but he’s working in Bruxelles and renting it out.

  13. @60 — excellent news, Hannah. Although hopefully they will not be spending money just to meet a committee budget deadline, as with the Denmark Hill repaving, it appears.

    The £5.4 million actually comes quite close to the figure generated annually by TfL’s cameras on Camberwell New Road since 2000, so it will be interesting to see how much attention the New Road gets with this bout of largesse from the man in Red.

  14. As a longtime lurker on your excellent site, Peter, and a Camberwell lifer who escaped to the US 17 years ago, I couldn’t help laugh at the Independent’s lead story today on Brits who are leaving the country in ever growing numbers, especially Sarah Omerod who recently moved to sunnier climes in Stasbourg. Her quote is priceless: “My time in France has exceeded my expectations. From the purely professional, being able to see how policy is made in other EU countries, for example, to the purely sociable, being able to spend the weekend on the beach instead of in Camberwell, it’s been brilliant.” Poor old Camberwell, hard to compete with Strasbourg…

  15. Whoop de Whoop £470k to do the pavement and road on Denmark Hill south of the Hospital it must be a priority on someones list ( isn’t this Herne Hill?) .This is 8% of the total budget. I would have thought that the area around Butterfly Walk is in need of upgrading, wider pavements and some of bus stops moved over to the green 45 & 35 are good candidates Hopefully a CDT could help deliver sensible solutions for the local community.

    I drive a car, walk and use public transport I also have a pathological hatred of cyclists on pavements something to do with being knocked unconcious by one and ending up in hospital. There are rotten car drivers, pedestrians, cyclists and bus drivers but most are okay lets have a bit of peace and harmony.

    Lambeth have upped the price of their CPZ from £60 p.a. to it being graded by the size of your car mine is now £100 p.a and that is for a hybrid, still less than £2.00 a week however it seems to have nothing to do with a green policy just revenue generation.

  16. Glad that the ONGLET has caught the imagination of bloggers, perhaps this weekend they’ll have a new pretentious menu item not to explain to the ignorant patrons! Have a good one ALAN DALE!

  17. Pretentious menu items? How about Spelt — seen on the menu of a resturant on the Southbank — i thougth Spelt was a type of flour but am willing to be proved wrong!

  18. @D‑MAN (55): They sell organic milk in the Spar petrol station on Peckham Road. Do they not have it in Basic on Denmark Hill?

  19. I hate the raise the spectre of JohnnyM now he’s gone quiet for a few hours, but reading his latest posts just now something occurred to me — I have a strong feeling he’s aged about 15, if not slightly younger. I think the gaps in posts come when he has to do his homework, or tidy his room.

    Apologies. Back to the — far more important — transport stuff.

  20. @ Peter W
    Love it! But seriously, if he really is only 15, his vocabulary is very well advanced (hyperbole, foie gras) so the homework is definitely paying off. That said, he appears to have bunked off 50% of the political studies lessons (and missed anything to the left of Ghengis Khan).

  21. Ben Gibberish- Strasbourg beach?! It’s 200 miles from the sea.

    Strasbourg is great song by the Rakes and a shit town by the lakes.

  22. Gnomee — the CDT idea is interesting.

    But unless we can convince TfL to change its mind and factor in Camberwell’s needs as a destination as well as a throughput, nothing much will change.

    I think you would be shocked to see some TfL internal documents:

    (1) aiming to push through as much traffic as possible based on projections that private motor car use will not decline;

    (2) claiming to treat traffic as encompassing cyclists, pedestrians and motorists together, but in fact using length of vehicles to measure throughput, whether public bus or private motor car.

    The mayoral campaign is nigh. I suggest people make up their mind quickly whether it is possible to influence Ken to take notice of Camberwell’s needs, or whether a detailed alternative view and firm policy commitment for Camberwell should be sought from Boris Johnson.

  23. Could someone explain to me the practicalities of how a CDT runs? Does it have its own staff, and if so, how do they get selected and paid? How is it accountable to the community for its performance and how the money is spent? Is it a quango? Are there any other CDTs other than Coin Street?

  24. i think that JohnnyM is classic — its great to have a bit of Daily MAil bloggism for a change. If you look at this paper it is still stuck in the 80’s with its hatred of trade unionists lefties — Derek Hatton, Ken, Neil Kinnock are still targets when everyone else had forgotten them. I saw a copy for the first time in about 15years — it made me feel quiet nauseous.
    Still it is the voice of middle England — petty racist and dumb — just like our little friend JohnnyM.

  25. Hey, Alan! Good to get a response from one of the people who most make the Camberwell site such a fun read. I realize that criticizing the place where one lives is a touchy thing, especially for someone who seems to have so much invested in keeping local real estate prices above water, but you have to admit that part of Camberwell’s perverse charm is its mix of the marvelous with the profoundly crap. While other places yuppify or decay, Camberwell simply soldiers on, as crap-great now as it was when I grew up there in the 60s and 70s. Only the names of the pubs change. But it’s a hard combination to live with, as I know from personal experience, and I don’t blame people like Sarah Omerod for getting out. I’ll always have affection for Camberwell, but if this site is still going in twenty years time we’ll still be reading about its great architecture, its proximity to central London, its amazing promise—and its street drinkers, the shocking state of the Green and the ever-so-imminent unveiling of plans for a tube connection…

  26. Lovin’ this Ben guy.

    Now. I’m taking odds on bonbohue not getting called up for his out of order comments from the left. Double standard.

    We’re off out. And that means getting the heck out of Camberwell and taxi-ing home in the wee hours. Shame we can’t stroll down the high street.

  27. What I don’t understand about people like Sarah Ormerod is why they don’t keep quiet about this great place they’ve found. I’d imagine one of the reasons for the move was to get away from the problems of 21st century society; if you then make a point of telling people how great it is, more will go there, and soon the problems will begin there too.

  28. hey JohnnyM don’t get me wrong — the more the better — nothing wrong with a good stir up — things can get a bit complacent when everyone agrees.
    and for your info I’m certainly not a lefty more on the libertarian side of things.
    Freedom of all speech please- even if I don’t agree with it otherwise we’re out there with the Nazis, Stalin & the Blair/Browns stifling dissent & democracy
    depriving us of our rights!

  29. I don’t think JohnnyM has said anything racist or dumb; selfish and ill-mannered, perhaps.

    BTW, JohnnyM, plenty of people here have strolled, and will be strolling, down the high street, and we’re all still alive. Perhaps it’s not as dangerous as you’re afraid.

  30. Maybe he’s just winding you up.
    Why would you live in Camberwell if you were afraid of walking down Church St?

    Alan- yep, I see still Squidder regularly.
    Goodnight.

  31. ONglet — flank steak I think — I had it on Thursday night. Asked for Med Rare and it came BLUE but el chef cooked it a bit more when I asked.

    Duck rilletes were good and the toast too

  32. Excuse copy and paste from my post on SE5 forum but it might help put in context some of the posts above on Southwark Saturation policy… which I was vehemently against as nice bars and pubs opening up in this area is actually helping the area not making it worse…

    In essence, the aim of Southwark Council is to try and address an issue that is fundamentally a police issue (e.g. street drinking, selling alcohol outside of licensed hours and unlicensed venues. Unfortunately it seems that this is not a priority area for the police which means that the council are powerless to do anything about the problems. The saturation policy is an attempt to try and reclaim some powers — e.g. to stop more White Lightning vendors opening up — or the ability to legally refuse the licence renewal of those shops that already do sell it. The are no plans to use the powers to stop new pubs / bars opening.

    In my opinion this is not addressing the real problem — i.e. the police don’t enforce the existing laws that exist. However, I whole heartedly support the council in their attempt to do all that they can do to sort our street drinking / alcohol related violence problem out themselves

    “On the subject of alcohol licenses, one of our local councillors for the Brunswick ward (Ian Wingfield) gave quite a lot of insight on this issue at a meeting on Thursday night. The problem basically stems from the law and decisions taken by magistrates if the council tries to withold licenses.

    If the council doesn’t approve a license, or a reapplication for a license, those making the applications can take the matter to court and they will pretty much always get a decision in their favour. There have also been issues with premises selling alcohol without a license — something that the council is aware of but effectively have no powers to do anything about. This is a police and enforcement issue. The old Aristocrats nightclub was a good example of this. Clearly some lobbying to force the police to take action about such venues would be beneficial.

    The current initiative seems to be to bring in a saturation policy. This would allow the council to arbitrarily refuse license applications or reapplications and enable them to sidestep the legal system. The claim is that they would use this power sensibly, and I am sure that is the intention.

    I have some reservations about this approach, and it seems to me that it is the current system that really needs reform rather than granting executive powers that may or may not be used properly.

    Certain premises were named as venues that regularly attract violence, and the suggestion was that the saturation policy could be used as a stick to force them to straighten up. In my mind if trouble spots are known there should be ways to deal with this within existing legislation and policing.”

  33. As for CPZ, don’t get me started.

    It is, in my view, essentially a money raising activity from the council.

    However, the problem that we have is that when they did stage 1 of the consultation, a higher proportion of residents were in favour of introducing the CPZ than against.

    Having spoken to a number of these residents, their issue is that the roads around Wilson Road are used a lot for commuters (Denmark Hill station) and by those who work at the council. Therefore it is often very difficult to get a space.

    I don’t have a car and on the rare occasions that I hire one I have never had a problem. As I don’t have a car the new proposals won’t really affect me — aside from the fact that I have, had really bad experience in other areas of using visitor permits in the past.

    If you disagree with CPZ proposals DO fill in the response we got through our letterboxes yesterday. The council are listening, they just think that they are doing what we want!

  34. Ben the themes may be similar but Camberwell has changed a great deal in just the 4 or 5 years I’ve been here.

    Maybe house prices aren’t everything (maybe) but they are an objective measure of increased demand for property here. When I first moved to Bavent Road my mates were renting a flat worth £120,000. It sold recently for £265,000.

    I bet you wish you still owned the house you lived in in the 60s. Maybe you do..

    There are still tramps and madheads around the green but all of the residential areas have and are being gentrified at a great pace.

    Obviously, being an ex pat you are seeking constant reassurance that you did the right thing and love to read negative comments about Camberwell that affirm your view. There are plenty here so read on. Or alternatively you could go and find an Irish Bar where you might meet some Brits who will tell you how overtaxed we are back in the UK.

    Personally I think you’d need a very good reason to emigrate. Ronny Biggs was right to leave. Until we get more background on you then the jury is out.

    If you are ever back home then give us a blog and I’ll show you around this town you left and that I love.

  35. Oh I forgot. Yesterday I spent a penny in Camberwell’s new loo:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/se5forum/sets/72157603219108983/

    Glad to say it’s still in fairly good shape, no overt signs of abuse in there yet, not smelly, not repugnant. Yet. It#s free by the way and you have 20 minutes to do your business, whatever it may be, before the door opens, and there’s an alarm two minutes before opening time.

    And discovered the reason for it taking so long to open once it was ready ‘to go’ — it was waiting for the electricity company to get the power on.

  36. See Ben? We’s got us a new toilet! And the house prices done doubled*

    *everywhere else in London did the same so we’re no better off really

    Mates who lived here and convinced us to bide our time here say the same as you do Ben. And they got a bit emotionally involved and defensive but say the day they left it all made sense. Camberwell that is. They can see it rationally now and know the score.

  37. Anyone who has to convince themselves they did the right thing to leave is clutching at straws.

    I don’t justify my decision to leave Grimsby.

  38. In the reverse, it’s sort of like most of Camberwell convincing ourselves regularly that we did the right thing moving here!

    ‘It’s not so bad, it’s not so bad, it’s not so bad’

  39. I guess some people do need reassurance either that they should leave, should stay, should emigrate, should go back to Grimsby — whatever. If they get the reassurance they need here on Peter’s site then that’s fine.

    Maybe you are unsure about what to do and you are hoping to get confirmation that you should move or maybe we can even show you how to enjoy living here. Ultimately it’s up to you.

    The other possibility is that you enjoy telling people their hopes for their home are in vain. Seems a bit heartless but if that keeps your nads stocked then fill your boots.

    Today we went to Selfridges to get Christmas presents then took the kids to the Horniman in the afternoon. It was a bit busy but the kids were happy. Tonight I’m going on a bit of a real ale pub crawl in the SE42 area. I’ll skirt the borders of Camberwell, Peckham and East Dulwich. I’m only going in the Ivanhoe if there are more than 10 people though..

    No Silver Buckle tonight but I will be in there again soon. It reminds me of the Crab Shack from My name is Earl.

  40. Like Alan, I don’t need to convince myself of anything about living here; I came here by choice, and I like it here. I don’t like everything — I’m not stupid — but there’s enough here to keep me happy.

  41. There are more good people I know in Camberwell than any other place I’ve lived. From my home town Newcastle to Manchester, Southport, Chicago, Paris, Balham, Kennington. Well I got to know quite a few in New Cross and Cordoba.

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