Camberwell Information Day

Yesterday the green hosted Camberwell Information day. A collection of marquees and gazebos housing plans and projects for the area. There were councilors, volunteers, architects and consultants all there to talk to residents about the schemes and proposed buildings within SE5, including the new library, Burgess Park, Nottinghill Housing Trust for the Elmington Estate and consultants from both hospitals.

The library plans were a bit of a shock. Gone are the plans to bring over the Bermondsy Spa pavilion and instead a new 1980’s style angular red and black shed is proposed to occupy the site. It will sit at a jaunty angle producing corners of unused wasted space around the triangle structure; also almost all the trees will need to be chopped down to accommodate it.  Attached are a couple of renders of the plans by Cazenove Architects.

Next were plans for the Elmington plots. There wasn’t much detail about these but the council are also planning to knock down or refurbish allot more buildings in this area as soon as the Elmington project is finished. The current proposal is mostly 34 story terraces following the street layout and with more walkways and cycle-ways. At present it is planned that Edmund Street will have parking on both sides, this will obviously narrow the road so it isn’t good news for cyclists that use that route into London.

Both Maudsley and Kings have building projects on the go. The Maudsley is going to start a new training centre on Grove Lane later this year and due to be finished by 2013. Plans look good from the renders and model (photo attached). Education consultants were also the event to talk about the plans to redevelop the schools in the area including St. Michael & All Angels and Highshore School on Wyndham Road.

Finally the council are getting peoples emails because I think they are planning an event to discuss the road layout around the green. Oh and there was a band playing jolly music. I will update the Camberwell development map with more information on these new projects.

124 thoughts on “Camberwell Information Day”

  1. Sorry that all happened at the same time! Sorry Julian didn’t mean to steal your thunder. I think we covered different aspects of the day and we definitely had different opinions on the library.

  2. Good post. Thanks (and Julian too)

    The St. Michael & All Angels school — does anyone know how seriously religious it is?

    Do you have to be a signed-up Christian to go?

    Would it be tolerable for a non-religious family in return for an education?

  3. None of the Church of England secondary school academies is especially religious compared to C of E primary schools or other religious secondary schools such as the local Catholic schools. I don’t think there is even any priority given to Christians in admission procedures, though that is not especially relevant to St Michael and All Angels as almost no parents really wanted their children to go there.

    Its unpopularity and unimpressive results are the reasons it is going to stop being a Church of England academy in 2013 and become an Ark academy like the Walworth Academy, where the results have improved a lot in the last few years. Ark academies may sound like they’re run by Christian fundamentalists, but whatever the beliefs of the founders, the schools are secular.

  4. Can I mention a group called the Grove Lane Project? We are asking the Council to improve the layout of Grove Lane near the junction with Camberwell Church Street. We want wider pavements, some more trees, less wasted space.

    Please take a look at our (very basic) website,
    where we’ve posted our drawings and plans of what Grove Lane could look like.

    Do send us an email if you’re interested in supporting the campaign at grovelaneproject@​gmail.​com

  5. The plan looks good Julian — it would seriously help aggregate the area round there.

    The Sun & Doves is a sorry sight. Who knows who can make a pub from the wreck, though the days of pubs may be over in those parts. It’s all fancy bars these days with art but no artisans.

    The Cadleigh is a fabulous local public house. It’s not for cool people aged 20–40, it’s for everyone who lives local, like a local public house.

    Now who could they be, those uncool others? Who are they? Who exactly are they? Who do they think they are?

    We will never know.

  6. Dagmar, there are concerns among people who live local to The Sun and Doves that Scottish & Newcastle Pub Company might sell the building to the hospital or to a developer for housing. Rest easy, they will not. It’s ALL ABOUT MONEY. Pubco practice is to sell off freeholds only when they sense there is no future income from a particular unit and that is NOT the case with The Sun and Doves.

    The Sun and Doves will be taken over by a Multiple Operator; someone like Grand Union. In fact S&NPC already have a taker. And GU is a likely candidate; it’s a much better site for their business model than the Grove.

    Selling pub freeholds individually is a last ditch stand for pubcos — as long as there’s evidence a lessee can be found to squeeze the pubco’s instinct is to keep a tight grip on a pub, get a lessee in and OWN them.

    There are a number of other reasons why The Sun and Doves will remain a pub:

    Although pubs are falling on their arse everywhere, because the system is designed to work like that, pub companies are still posting healthy profits — they make profit while the pubs make none. Every closed pub is a potential Rent; Beer; Double Income Stream and a pubco will never give that up until they can see no way of the unit trading successfully for them.

    S&NPC make a lot of money out of that building and they will turn it round as quickly as possible so they can get back to milking again.

    There is no way that site would get planning permission for change of use. It’s clearly a viable business, if the pubco shilling is taken out of the equation.

    Next; RBS owns the building (and 900 or so other pubs that S&NPC ‘manage’ on RBS’s behalf) and they would be inclined to sell the freehold only as part of a package of pubs to some bidder who is already in the pub business.

    We were trying to buy The Sun and Doves’ freehold for the last four years. Not interested — they were making too much money out of it.

  7. This below is taken from a facebook group ‘Licensees Supporting Licensees’. It’s a series of posts made there up to yesterday.

    By the way everyone — We left the Sun and Doves at about 4.30am on Friday morning, 23 September 2011, five hours before the bailiffs were due to lock us out. We left the pub EMPTY — no bar, seats, tables, lights, no stainless steel splashbacks, we took the trellis around the front garden and the gave the rosemary plants to customers. We dug the mature bay trees and other plants out of the back garden and sold the water butts to a cafe. The kitchen, the accommodation, the office, as much as humanly possible that did not belong to S&NPE/RBS we removed carefully and sold off or gave away.

    Slept most of the last two days — was completely exhausted after all that working with the best and most friendly and caring people — our customers who came to help us carefully dismantle and remove The Sun and Doves from the building. And can I tell you this? I’m broke, I have no security (apart from friends of course) I have no home, I won’t be able to see my kids as much as I did, friends are putting me up until I find somewhere settled and I’ve signed on whatever… everything’s up in the air, not sure what’s going to happen and YOU KNOW WHAT? It’s a LOT, lot better than what it felt like every day for the last sixteen years. In fact tomorrow it IS sixteen years since I signed the lease in 1995. It’ll be SWEET SIXTEEN PROPER!

    The police called me yesterday and asked me, very politely, about what had happened because S&NPC want to press charges for Criminal Damage and theft. They said the fixed seating, the bar pumps and the primary cellar cooling equipment belonged to them, that I’d stolen it and could they have a crime reference number. I explained: All this is equipment that I bought and installed myself during a refurbishment I did in 2006 which then was then sold to a lease hire company. I recounted the FACT that S&NPC has a detailed list of all the inventory, including this equipment, which proves that Title (ownership) belongs to someone else NOT them. S&NPC told the policeman that the cellar cooler alone was worth £10,000. Now then — this is the same equipment they always refused to service, which I ultimately replaced with new, it cost about £5K in all, which they always told me is tenant’s F&F. It’s not complicated folks: these pubcos are bullying lying cheating thieving Feudal bastards. They MUST go to the wall and end the blight they have brought upon the pub industry and the tradition and heritage of the British Isles.

    It’s all good at the moment, no stress. Except the bankruptcy hearing but I’m sure that will not kill me so? Whathehell?

    Soon you’ll be able to buy into Britain’s pubs with The People’s Pub Partnership: Help Make Change Happen

  8. @ Che Mark Dodds

    I can’t even begin to imagine what you have been through in recent years — but I do admire your tenacity regarding the fair pint campaign. That is really something to be proud about — including the positive judgement by select commitee announced earlier this week.

    My only concern is that the recommendations in that report will take many years to come into effect — and many more fantastic local community pubs will close in the meantime.

    Now that the beer-tie has been identified as something which needs to be removed — is there a danger that the pubco will make up the shortfall by increasing the already unrealistic rents even further — or has the report made a note of closing this dishonest loophole too?

  9. @ Julian

    Good Work — I see the green shoots of a potentially good plan there. It makes perfick sense.

    Any chance of getting some of the grovers to help the Camberwell Village Hall campaign? 😉

  10. @eusebiovic thanks young man, much appreciated.

    You’re right recommendations are only recommendations — the Select Committee presented a timetable for reform which would take a year to implement if taken up. But there’s nothing to say that Vince Cable or Ed Davey will actually enact anything for the future health of pubs.

    And it is a sure thing that while they can, pubcos will be screwing more and more out of their estates — because the employees know the writing is on the wall for the beer tie and their unregulated shenanigans cannot go on for ever.

    In the meantime the important thing to so is to spread the word about the tie as wide and far as possible and try to deter innocents from signing their lives and savings away forever.

  11. The keen situationist does well to start Monday morning in Scope on Denmark Hill. Their sound system and choice of music are excellent, their books department well stocked.

    William Hall’s biography of Michael Caine was available today. The story of Caine and his mother Ellen who worked her fingers to the bone for her two sons while his father was in World War Two makes poignant reading in these strange times.

    To read their story helps frame our current SE5ituation of gastrobristos and the gastrognomes who linger langorously there over their langoustines.

    The situationist turns up her raincoat collar against the cold, lights a Strand, walks off alone.

  12. Nice to see the autumnal leaves being roasted on the trees, like Marlboro tobacco. Word is, the Cadleigh will soon close. Where have all the pubs gone?

  13. I will be gutted if the Cadeleigh closes, although sadly unsurprised; even in the few years I’ve been going there I’ve seen business plummet; not even the football brings in the crowds of old. And it’s no reflection on the owners, Dermot & Mary, who run the place really well; it’s just that for the people who frequent there, the price of a pint is measured against a four-pack from the supermarket, and found wanting. But it’s my local, a proper local, where people know each others names, and that’s almost beyond value.

    I have more to write, about the Sun & Doves, but no time to do it. Soon.

  14. @Mark — Falafel is top notch. We’ve used them for parties on occasion too — never had bad food from there.
    Definitely up for the PPP — was involved in a similar venture previously but I think the people running it got bored or something as nothing concrete came out of it.
    This looks like a great idea — can’t wait to see the next phase. Will email you separately.

  15. Good stuff, Mark, you make a good freelance. Word is Cadeleigh will close in a year or so, but still, shame. It’s a good, plain pub made by the people who go there.

  16. Ladies and Gentlemen of Camberwell and further afield…

    If any of you have photographs of The Sun and Doves — from any time, of any thing, I’d be much appreciate it if you could send them to mail@​sunanddoves.​co.​uk and I’ll add them into a set of pics on the S&D flickr stream

    By the way, the police rang again today. C.I.D. this time. Now S&PC are saying it’s radiators and a hot water cylinder that I stole. They want to press criminal charges.

  17. A day to celebrate.

    The scaffolding around the Hermits is finally coming down.

    We’ll all get wet now when we have a fag though.

  18. The streets were alive with the sounds of continental promenading last evening. It was good.

    Frank’s was MOBBED; there must have been three thousand people. Easily. Went to the Montpelier after — MOBBED too. So went to FM Mangal to eat good food. They were busy too.

  19. If you didn’t get to the opening of Ed Gray’s new show at GX Gallery last night here’s a snapshot of the evening:

    Ed’s first major solo show was at The Sun and Doves in 2003: That’s where Davide Mengoli, GX Gallery’s owner, met Ed and forged a relationship representing him that has lasted all these years.

    The pub was a habitual stop off for Ed’s friends and family after his openings at GX:

  20. Not just darts and dominoes but shove ha’penny and cribbage for small stakes.

    I’ve always loved that sign in old pubs.

    I do love a game of cribbage too.

  21. My grandfather taught me to play cribbage. It’s become a forgotten game. I’ve almost forgotten too.

    Deal five and two in the box, or deal six and players choice? What’s the London version? My grandfather was in Hampshire.

  22. Cribbage is a fantastic game. I play it all the time. As do a lot of people I know. Forgotten game nothing.

    Deal six and put two in the box. It’s the best option I think.

  23. Talking about the old days…now that Camberwell Leisure Centre has been fully re-opened — does that mean we’ll be able to go down the local baths and catch polio? 😉

    I jest of course! — I love what has been done to that building.

    A thriving community isn’t just transport connections and a real estate mix.

    Civic pride is as important as it ever was — we shouldn’t lose sight of that.

    It seems to me that the dreaded “regeneration” word gets people backs up because modern architects and planners regularly fail to remember that basic, simple all-important fact.

  24. What a pity it was Regenguru’s “Baby Linen” lingerie shop that was burned down on Rye Lane during the evenements. No wonder we haven’t heard from him recently.

    The ladies in the window may have been dummies but boy were they sexy. You wear the lingo then bingo the baby comes virtually instantly. Like they used to say about Guinness in Africa, “There’s a baby in every bottle.”

    As Marc Bolan sang, “Regenguru, where are you?”

  25. Oxjam Camberwell Takeover 22nd October 2011.

    The weekend before my bankruptcy hearing is going to be fun and excitement all around the SE5 area. Live music and all manner of performance, dance and burlesque is on in most venues in Camberwell. The Sun and Doves was going to be the main venue for this great fundraising weekend but hey. Time waits for no dude.

    See here for flyer front: and back

    and HERE for the Oxjam Camberwell Facebook page:

    and HERE to buy tickets:

  26. The newly re-opened Clarendon Arms on Camberwell New Road has both Sky Sports and ESPN, though.

    The Old Dispensary also has Sky Sports, if you can get through a game without being stabbed.

    I’m being mean. I watched Spurs v Arsenal in there and it was fine.

  27. Oh yes. Heard that Southwark are seriously considering demolishing the Bussey building AND the multi storey car park.

    Course that’s all I was told, nothing about the bigger plans that lie beyond such eventualities.

    What’s happening to the library? The Pavilion been dumped in favour of some red thing?

  28. You are so right, John! Their Low Glycaemic Index bread is the best in the universe, by Jupiter. It is not often that I agree with the gruff middle-aged men of Camberwell, but you have stumbled on a genuine gem, John.

  29. @J Mark Dodds

    I anticipated that the demise of the multi-story car park on Rye Lane may not be too far from reality quite some time ago. These brutalist buildings are being dismantled all over London. Brixton’s went earlier this year.

    Ah! but Bold Tendancies and Frank’s Campari Bar are there and the Premier Multiplex — why would Southwark Council want to get rid? Fun places but the reason they have appropriated various sections of a municipal multi-story car park is precisely because it will be on it’s way out before too long.

    So that means the only cinema theatre facility left in Southwark will be the Surrey Quays Multiplex.

    Hmmm — I know of a rather attractive cinema theatre building in Camberwell that could and should be used as a community arts centre with a cinema…It could easily happen — if some of the individuals who run Southwark Council showed a little lateral thinking and long term vision.

    A modern build squeezed into the increasingly compromised Elephant and Castle re-development couldn’t possibly compete with the attractive shop-front of a fully restored 1930’s art deco building at the crossroads of the entire borough.

  30. My friend the Restaurant Inspector might agree with you John, if it came to pass that it were made, by divine intervention of course, available to the non-faith faithful people of SE5 and beyond.

    Went to Wuli Wuli last night. Chilli echoes of the delicious Saliva Chicken, Smacked Cucumber, Wet Spinach and Garlic sauce and Twice Cooked Pork reverberating through my alimentary canal, and beyond, this morning.

  31. What do you mean you’ve never been!

    Gives Silk Road a run for their money, but very different food at the same time.

    Go for the Chinese menu (as opposed to the English menu at the start of list).
    Try the green beans (with or without pork). The Lamb with cumin, and if you are feeling brave have the chitterlings. Delicious.

    On another note, went to the Poetry readings at the library last night. Some amazing stuff. Not a massive poetry fan but there was one girl there with her dad who should become the next poet laureate. Made me realise that being white is easy.
    Beautifully written, beautifully expressed.

    Her dad read “How Do I Love thee”, by Elizabeth Barrett Browning, in a way that made the poem unrecognisable, i.e. interesting.

    There’s a poetry slam on at the Peckham Library on Saturday night at 7pm. Hopefully the girl and her dad should be there. Well worth it.

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